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Ultimate Rollercoaster > Discussion Forums > Roller Coasters, Parks & Attractions > The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.?

The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.?

drachen drachen Profile

Posted:
10/3/12 at
11:18:04 PM

I was recently involved in a Facebook chat with alpengeistno3 regarding Skyrush – a ride we recently shared a few laps on. We were discussing the coaster, and Intamin in general, and I got thinking… What if Skyrush is the beginning of the end of Intamin in the U.S. (IntaRide) as we know it?

I don’t mean to come across as overreacting to the problems Skyrush has faced. I’m really just throwing this out there to see what others think. What if Skyrush is the straw that broke IntaRide’s back? What if it is the final nail in the Intamin coffin?

First, I need everyone to take off their “enthusiast hat” for a moment, and put on their “park executive hat”. I think we all agree that Intamin’s large coasters are fun, and are the most intense, and the most thrilling. We all love and appreciate that. My top 10 is littered with Intamin coasters. I really enjoy the majority of them.

But I’m looking at this from a park’s persective –what rides I’m getting the most bang for my buck. I don’t necessarily care about the intensity of a ride.

As a park operator, I want a coaster that my general paying guest wants to ride over and over again, and tell their family and friends about. I want a coaster that is going to be touted on Facebook and Twitter. I want a coaster that is going to bring a greater number of guests through the gates for a number of years. I want a ride that I’m not going to have to put MORE money into after its operational.

And I don’t think Intamin is providing that kind of product, and I think parks are catching on. I want to list a number of things - industry trends - that are currently NOT going in Intamin’s favor.

- Intamin’s history of ejections. Sure it’s only been three out of millions of riders over the years. But let’s face it, that’s still three too many. It’s resulted in some pretty uncomfortable restraint systems, the culmination of which is the Skyrush restraints.

- As someone mentioned below, you can't ignore the restraint that snapped on Furious Baco.

- Cedar Fair, arguably the largest of the large park chains, has made the switch to B&M for their most recent coasters, including the design (gigacoaster) that only Intamin had done before. To us outsiders, it seems that expensive, operation inhibiting problems to Dragster, Wicked Twister, Maverick, Intimidator 305, and Shoot the Rapids have taken their toll.

- Six Flags, also arguably the largest of the large park chains, hasn’t built an Intamin coaster since El Toro. The exception, of course, is Green Lantern at Magic Mountain. But Intamin isn’t going to stay in business building the occasional Zac Spin.

- Hersheypark, an Intamin showcase of sorts, is not happy with Skyrush. It’s more than they bargained for, and the general public is not on board. The park is not getting the results they thought they had purchased with it. The ride has a variety of design flaws (some of which could be very FUN), and the restraints fall just short of being a PR disaster. I think Skyrush faces an expensive off-season with a restraint/seat modification possibly in the works. Between Skyrush’s issues and Fahrenheit’s design shortcomings, I would be very, very surprised to see Hersheypark go back to Intamin for their next steel coaster.

- Having said all of that, other parks have taken notice. If you look at the “New for 2013” thread ( http://www.ultimaterollercoaster.com/forums/roller-coasters-theme-parks/220291 ) there is nothing new from Intamin for next year here in the U.S. at this point.

- B&M did it to Arrow, and they’ve done it again to Intamin. They’ve clearly re-established themselves as the elite steel roller coaster designers. From a mechanical standpoint, they have no peers, and from a rider-comfort standpoint, they have few. Sure they cost more money up front. But due to the fact that you know you won’t have to modify the ride down the road, it’s probably worth it. You also know that the GP will love it.

- Intamin has had a lock on launched coasters in recent years. But there is now competition in that market. Premier is making a comeback. B&M is rumored to be working on a design. And manufacturers like Gerstlauer, Zierer, and Mack are now in the large steel coaster game – even the launch game.

- You want a vertical lift, compact looping coaster? Well, Fahrenheit was one of the first. But now, if you want that type of ride, you're probably calling Gerstlauer first.

Now, some of you may be asking, “At what point do you blame the park for failing to do their due diligence when ordering a ride from Intamin?” - a valid question.

I don’t think there is a straight forward answer for the question, as the amount of time, research and development, and money a particular park puts into a new coaster varies from park to park. But there is no denying that the common denominator in almost all of the recent new ride problems is Intamin.

So, I wonder… are we close seeing the end of new Intamin steel coasters built in the U.S.? What can Intamin do to re-invent itself at this stage in the game to give parks more of a sense of security in doing business with them? Is Intamin capable of changing their business model and doing a better job on the engineering end of things?

* This post was modified at 10/4/12 4:19:25 PM *

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/3/12 11:48:32 PM
To be honest, I still blame Hershey for wanting to jam Skyrush in that space rather than as you or another poster suggested about relocating Farenheit to another area in the park and putting Skyrush there in its place.

I305, I dunno who (park or builder) didn't build an overbanked turn (like with MF). But imo, if I305 had an overbank, I don't think there would've been all the issues about the trims or the wearing down of the wheels.

I think MF should've been 'cloned'. The last major incident with the Ride of steel/Bizzaro hypers was that double leg amputee guy getting thrown off.

If El toro is a good as everyone says it it, I do not understand why no other parks have Intamin woodies. I do hope to ride El Toro someday.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Eric_Gieszl Eric_Gieszl Profile at 10/3/12 11:58:29 PM
If I recall correctly Werner Stengel didn't do the static calculations for Intmidator 305. Did Intamin also hire someone else to do the same for SkyRush.

This person, who is in the know, felt this was the major contributing factor with the problems with I-305.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/4/12 12:05:56 AM
Eric_Gieszl said:

If I recall correctly Werner Stengel didn't do the static calculations for Intmidator 305. Did Intamin also hire someone else to do the same for SkyRush.


This person, who is in the know, felt this was the major contributing factor with the problems with I-305.

Excellent point, Eric - something that I wasn't aware of. I couldn't say for sure whether Stengel did Skyrush - I would guess not.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/4/12 12:12:25 AM
Cyclone_Phil said:

I think MF should've been 'cloned'. The last major incident with the Ride of steel/Bizzaro hypers was that double leg amputee guy getting thrown off.

If El toro is a good as everyone says it it, I do not understand why no other parks have Intamin woodies. I do hope to ride El Toro someday.

I'm glad Millennium Force wasn't cloned, as much as I love the ride. I'd rather see new designs than clones.

I'm curious, as you are, as to why Intamin can't duplicate its and El Toro's success. I wish some park would hire Intamin to build another wooden ride, but I just don't see it happening.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/4/12 12:21:59 AM
I understand, I used the word 'cloned' loosely as the basic outline could be something in b/w what MF and I305 is.* That would've worked out much better. I am not a fan of the 'Maverick' type side to side 'twists'. Even though I like I305 now, I think it could've been better without the need for the trim on the 3rd hill.

*Also like with all the B&M hypers, not everyone in the GP are like us in being to most of the parks. So someone going to KD, might not have been to CP, so they might not care if what they rode is almost the same as another coaster in another park.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Eric_Gieszl Eric_Gieszl Profile at 10/4/12 12:46:42 AM
To my knowledge the cost of El Toro wasn't disclosed by Six Flags.

In various discussions I've had over the years it was apparently a very costly roller coaster, rivaling major steel coasters and most parks simply don't have the budget to buy rides in that price range. I've also been told that those who have those budget would rather consider other attractions that they feel give them more bang for the buck.

El Toro is praised by enthusiasts and seems to be well liked by Six Flags Great Adventure guests, but if you had $25 million would you buy Intamin pre-fabricated wood or something that is perceived to be better, like Bolliger & Mabillard? You have to take into consideration capacity.

El Toro might deliver a stellar ride experience (I know for a fact that it does), but still Kingda Ka is the flagship attraction at the park and I would even bet that Nitro out ranks it in the eyes of most park guests.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/4/12 1:17:23 AM
True, good points there. I always thought El Toro was about $25 mil as well.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 10/4/12 1:34:55 AM
I certainly hope that Intamin can up its game and have a drastic turn-around, but if they continue down their path of creating rides with mechanical issues and uncomfortable, always changing restraints, then I think they are at their downfall. Idk if Skyrush itself did it, but certainly their overall track record of engineering mistakes lately has to be hurting them some way. Looking at this year, only 2 Intamin coasters opened, and Divertical just barely qualifies. Though a couple more are under construction, with opening dates supposedly slated for 2012 (according to RCDB.) This is quite a big dip from the high numbers they were putting out just a few years back.

I doubt the Furious Baco snapped restraint incident has exactly instilled confidence in the company.

It seems Intamin has direct competition on nearly every style of coaster they offer. Even their revolutionary pre-fab wooden coaster has new competition with Rocky Mountain's Outlaw Run (though, it has yet to be proven.) Other companies have proven they can do what Intamin can, and do it with generally more reliable rides that at the very least, don't require something to be re-designed/engineered.

This may not be the downfall of Intamin in just the U.S, but as a whole. Hope not. They provide amazing rides if they would just figure out how to make them reliable from the beginning, and have safe AND comfortable restraints.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by cellocoasterdude cellocoasterdude Profile at 10/4/12 9:59:31 AM
I have always thought that the Mega-lite was the best coaster design hands down. It also appeared that Skyrush would be a very similar experience, but from what I have heard this is not the case. Knowing how good the Mega-lite and pre-fabs are, I hope that they can keep it together.

-Tim

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/4/12 11:20:56 AM
cellocoasterdude said:

I have always thought that the Mega-lite was the best coaster design hands down. It also appeared that Skyrush would be a very similar experience, but from what I have heard this is not the case. Knowing how good the Mega-lite and pre-fabs are, I hope that they can keep it together.


-Tim

You bring up a good point as well. The mega-lites receive rave reviews. They seem to be a lot of fun, without exerting excess force on riders like Skyrush and I-305 do.

As much as I would love to see a mega-lite be installed stateside, it's not likely, at least at any large theme park. In this country, parks feel you need something to market and to draw people to the gate - to justify the expense of the ride. Mega-lites probably won't do that at 100 feet tall.

I think Intamin looked at their mega-lite design and tried to "Americanize" it by recreating it on a larger scale at Kings Dominion, and now at Hersheypark. Unfortunately, from a rider comfort perspective, it did not work.

Maybe a park like Holiday World or Silverwood can pull off a mega-lite.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by frontrow frontrow Profile at 10/4/12 2:15:55 PM
It all depends on what a park wants. B&M coasters provide a comfortable, smooth, and enjoyable ride. They are super reliable and very rideable. B&M is innovative in how we ride a coaster; inverted, floorless, standing, flying, and now wing riding. The GP love's these types of coasters. Even the B&M hyper coasters give a smooth, comfortable ride with floating air time. This July I rode Apollos Chariot and Superman ROS on consecutive days. AC had great floating air time, while Superman had ejector type air time. The B&M coasters are something that the GP will enjoy and want to ride again, they get off the coaster and are smiling and laughing with joy.

Intamin is a company that is always pushing the envelope, in terms of height, speed, angle of decent, intensity, and g forces. These are true extreme rides. The coasters talked about the most in this thread, El Toro, I305, and Skyrush, are my 3 favorite coasters. These rides are too intense for some members of the GP, but coaster heaven for others. Non enthusiast friends of mine visited Hershey in July and rode Skyrush, before I had a chance to. When they got home they were eager to tell about their experience. Two of them hated Skyrush and said they would never ride it again, the other 2 loved it as much as I do. Intamin builds coasters that are very intimadating to the GP. Top Thrill Dragster and Kinda Ka scare people just by watching those coasters go through their circuit. The GP looks at these type of coasters as personal accomplishment, after the ride and sometimes elect not to ride again. Cedar Point is one of the most popular parks in the country, and their 3 most popular coasters are made by Intamin. There is the reliability factor. Because these coasters are pushing the envelope, they have a lot of down time, but Intamin isn't the only company with that problem. Look at the problems Verbolten has had this year. I personally think coasters like I305 and Skyrush are not flawed. To me they are engineering marvels.

The reason Intamin wooden coasters haven't taken off in the US is cost. Large theme parks can purchase huge steel coasters for the same amount of money. Smaller parks can't afford $25 million. A lot of the top ranked wooden coasters are at the smaller parks. Not only is a wooden coaster from Gravity Group or GCI affordable, but this becomes the park's main attraction. A good wooden coaster will start to draw people in that live a little further away. Parks like Worlds of Fun, Valleyfair, Six Flags St. Louis, and Six Flags Magic Mountain have installed GCI woodies in recent years. Six Flags or Cedar Fair could afford an Intamin woodie, but chose to go the economic route. There are Intamin wooden coasters in Europe and South Korea, I've never been overseas so I can't comment on the theme parks over there. Part of me would like to see another Intamin woodie in the US. Then again there's nothing else in the US like El Toro, so it's unique, which contributes to it being my favorite coaster.

I don't think we have seen the end of Intamin in the US. I think what is happened is we are starting to reach the plateau of what the GP can handle in terms of intensity and g forces. Intamin coasters are either loved or they are feared. Some parks still want to push that envelop, and when they do, they will call Intamin.

Thanks for reading,
Ken

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Katie Katie Profile at 10/4/12 2:32:49 PM
I distinctly remember I-305s media day. I was in line for the ride (there wasn't many people in line at that point). I remember seeing Sandor checking tire temps after every cycle as they were only rolling with one train that day. (I am unsure if the second wasn't ready or they weren't ready to run two trains.)

It seemed as he was getting concerned throughout the day with how high the temps were running. While I absolutely LOVED 305 a lot of the people there that day loved the ride, but hated the restraints. Just imagine if they put Skyrush's lap bars on 305. All I can say is OW!!

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/4/12 3:47:36 PM
frontrow said:

I don't think we have seen the end of Intamin in the US. I think what is happened is we are starting to reach the plateau of what the GP can handle in terms of intensity and g forces. Intamin coasters are either loved or they are feared. Some parks still want to push that envelop, and when they do, they will call Intamin.

I hear you. Intamin has pushed envelope over the years. But what's the point? If you're going to push the envelope and deliver products that your clients are going to be unhappy with, and the GP isn't going to like - why do it?

I would argue that most of their "envelope pushing" has been in recent years. I wouldn't call Millennium Force an envelope-pusher. Sure it's tall and fast, but at no point is it "too much" for your average guest.

The three Supermen I would also argue are not envelope pushers. There were solid, sound 200 foot coasters. While it's not my "favorite", I think Bizarro is the best steel coaster in existence. Intamin did well with those three rides, and with MF.

The large launchers (Dragster and Ka) certainly pushed the envelope in terms height and speed, but each were mechanical nightmares in their early years.

It's their last two major installations - I-305 and Skyrush - that have both crossed the rider-comfort line, to the point were many enthusiasts think it's great, but the majority of the general public says "that was too much for me." You just can't do that and get an adequate return on investment.

It's like Ron Toomer once said, "How high can we go, how fast can we go?... Now, I think there are no limits. The only limits we'll see is what people will get on."

Intamin may have reached that point. Combine that, with the other mechanical and design issues listed above, and it begins to look like either negligence or incompetence (or both) on their part. Again, I think the industry has finally taken notice.

* This post was modified at 10/4/12 3:55:51 PM *

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/4/12 3:54:18 PM
Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

I doubt the Furious Baco snapped restraint incident has exactly instilled confidence in the company.

Good point - I'll add that to the list above...

Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

It seems Intamin has direct competition on nearly every style of coaster they offer. Even their revolutionary pre-fab wooden coaster has new competition with Rocky Mountain's Outlaw Run (though, it has yet to be proven.) Other companies have proven they can do what Intamin can, and do it with generally more reliable rides that at the very least, don't require something to be re-designed/engineered.

Correct. There is nothing, outside of the Zac Spin, that Intamin has a lock on from a design standpoint. There seem to now be better, more mechanically sound products out there, in every category. Some of them are cheaper too. That's not good for business.

Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

This may not be the downfall of Intamin in just the U.S, but as a whole. Hope not. They provide amazing rides if they would just figure out how to make them reliable from the beginning, and have safe AND comfortable restraints.

I agree. I'm certainly not rooting for Intamin's downfall. But something has to change, because parks seem to be looking elsewhere now.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 10/4/12 7:29:59 PM
drachen said:

Correct. There is nothing, outside of the Zac Spin, that Intamin has a lock on from a design standpoint.

Don't forget about the shuttle coasters' Impulse coasters, and the Half-pikes (although Vekoma has the Big Air halfpike, it has conventional trains, rather than the twisting gondolas).

Does anyone know if Impulse coasters are prone to breaking down frequently? Two days at CP, and one at Valleyfair, I still have yet to ride an Impulse.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/4/12 10:35:40 PM
Katie said:

I distinctly remember I-305s media day. I was in line for the ride (there wasn't many people in line at that point). I remember seeing Sandor checking tire temps after every cycle as they were only rolling with one train that day. (I am unsure if the second wasn't ready or they weren't ready to run two trains.)


It seemed as he was getting concerned throughout the day with how high the temps were running. While I absolutely LOVED 305 a lot of the people there that day loved the ride, but hated the restraints. Just imagine if they put Skyrush's lap bars on 305. All I can say is OW!!

Thankfully, it seems the water sprays in the station seems to help cool down the wheels on I305.
From what I've been reading, I would not like those restraints at all. I'm happy with I305's. Plus with the way I305 hugs the ground, I don't think it can ever work without otsr, as much as I would've loved to ride it with just a lap restraint.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 10/4/12 11:24:12 PM
I was reading through some old threads today. No one other than Junebugg has called Intamin to task on their "blunders" over the last 10 years than myself. However, I am not ready to call for their head, yet. While there have been a pretty significant number of engineering gaffes and oversights that have happened on their products, two things will keep them in business.

1. Their rides are cheaper than most of their competitors (the exception being the woodies, hence why we have yet to see another in the US)

2. According to the Golden Tickets, they do have the #1 Steel and #1 wooden coasters under their banner. (we may not put much stock in those results, but the parks and the industry does.)

With that being said, it may seem that Six Flags, Cedar Fair or Hershey (though the jury is still out until we see what they do with Skyrush in the off season) wouldn't deal with them again. I'd like to point out that money still talks. If Intamin is able to offer them a "sweet" deal on a new ride in the future (lots of pun intended in Hershey's case :) , I do think any of the problems the parks have had have been resolved to the point that any of these operators would be willing to take another chance on another ride in the future. Afterall, despite all the issues with the Bat, KI had no problems commissioning Vortex, Adventure Express, and Top Gun from Arrow. (I believe Vortex was completely "gratis")

Paul

* This post was modified at 10/5/12 1:53:18 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Geauga_Dog Geauga_Dog Profile at 10/6/12 10:39:17 AM
Personally I don't think it's so much a demise of Intamin in the U.S. but more like a phase they are going through. There was a time we were seeing a lot of Intamin's being built and very few Beemers and then all of a sudden we're seeing the opposite happen beginning with Behemoth and currently with Gatekeeper.

G-Dog

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/6/12 1:48:09 PM
Geauga_Dog said:

Personally I don't think it's so much a demise of Intamin in the U.S. but more like a phase they are going through. There was a time we were seeing a lot of Intamin's being built and very few Beemers and then all of a sudden we're seeing the opposite happen beginning with Behemoth and currently with Gatekeeper.

G-Dog

I would say this may be more than a lull for Intamin, especially when you compare it to B&M's history. You actually made me look up new installations between the two. Since I'm a numbers guy, I find it interesting...

Year ----------- B&M -----------Intamin
2000 ------------ 6 --------------- 5
2001 ------------ 4 --------------- 8
2002 ------------ 7 --------------- 6
2003 ------------ 4 --------------- 7
2004 ------------ 3 --------------- 2
2005 ------------ 2 --------------- 7
2006 ------------ 6 --------------- 7
2007 ------------ 3 --------------- 7
2008 ------------ 3 --------------- 7
2009 ------------ 3 --------------- 7
2010 ------------ 1 --------------- 4
2011 ------------ 4 --------------- 3
2012 ------------ 6 --------------- 4
2013 ------------ 2 --------------- 2

Now, Intamin's numbers are higher year after year, but their catalog is more diverse, with shuttle rides, mine trains, and family and kiddie coasters. Those are rides that B&M does not do.

All of B&M's numbers over that period are major coasters. Just from remembering the list, I'd say that about 60% of Intamins are large-scale coasters.

B&M never really went away, with 2010 being the only real "down" year. I'd be curious to know what the numbers are in the U.S. Maybe I'll chart that out later, since it's more relevant to the topic.

The main difference between the two is that no one has ever questioned B&M's quality or mechanics, or has questioned their ability - something from which Intamin, or maybe more specifically IntaRide is suffering right now.

Time will tell, but I really think U.S. parks are becoming leery about spending money on an Intamin ride right now, if their not officially leery already.

* This post was modified at 10/6/12 1:56:06 PM *

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/7/12 8:05:52 PM
This just in...

According to a number of people on Facebook, Skyrush is closed for the rest of the year due to "maintenance". Interesting...

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by theRock-steel theRock-steel Profile at 10/8/12 7:30:09 AM
There are eight Intamins that I really like and would miss terribly if I didn't get to go on again:
Millennium Force
Ride of Steel
Superman-Ride of Steel
Top Thrill Dragster
Maverick
Wicked Twister
Kingda Ka
Avatar Airbender

There are five that either should have been longer, had major changes to their restraints,
or had both changes made :
Volcano
Skyrush
Fahrenheit
Storm Runner
Cheetah Hunt

* This post was modified at 10/8/12 7:31:38 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/8/12 12:51:39 PM
Volcano could've used an extra inversion or even a helix at some point (either between the 2 launches or a wrap around the mountain). Such a waste how it ends so abruptly and there is still some energy left that gets sucked out by the brakes.

I305, no major complaints about it, but I kinda hoped it would've been a little longer.

Cheetah hunt, had it been like Bizzaro or the ride of steel type hypers, it would've been perfect for the amount of land used. If not for that one inversion, there would not have been a need for the otsr, imo. The Otsr pretty much hits you hard towards the end when you make a left towards the final brakes to the station. The length is ok, it's the 2nd half of the ride that makes the ride a disappointment. For me the best part was the ejector feeling on the hill after the 3rd launch. What could've made the ride better is if they made it a hyper with launches.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Tomes at 10/9/12 1:07:41 PM
I haven't read all the replies... so maybe I'm repeating stuff that other people have said.

But trust me, Intamin is not going down. They have, hmm, let's see - the tallest and fastest rides in the world, the rides with the most inversions, some of the longest and most intense rides, the #1 wooden coaster, the #1 steel coaster, for many years now... Not really a terrible record, if you think about it from a marketing stand point.

Despite all the problems, what do you think would happen to Cedar Point if Maverick, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster would were demolished tommorw? I'll tell you what would happen - it would SUCK. In most parks, the best rides, the rides that bring the most visitors, are the Intamins, and then the Beemers. Cedar Point had 4 Intamins in a row, and no beemer since like 1996... It was obvious that they would need to catch up in order to diversify their portfolio. With either a wing-rider or a massive flyer.

Yes, there have been modifications and annoyances, but that's what happens when parks want "biggest" and "fastest". It's just that Intamin was willing to go there, whereas B&M stayed rather tame. The risks were taken knowingly. What new technologies did B&M develop in the past 10 years? Flying coaster and Wing Rider. That's it. Intamin has created and combined so many new elements including a hydraulic launch, super-steep overbanked curves, insane side-changers ("twisties") Norwegian loops, 12-inversion coasters... They're NOT goingn down. Don't worry.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 3:20:21 PM
Tomes said:

But trust me, Intamin is not going down. They have, hmm, let's see - the tallest and fastest rides in the world, the rides with the most inversions, some of the longest and most intense rides, the #1 wooden coaster, the #1 steel coaster, for many years now... Not really a terrible record, if you think about it from a marketing stand point.

Their history has nothing to do with this thread, or the current problems the company faces. I think it's completely irrelevant to this conversation.

The general public couldn't care less about an enthusiast-based poll. The only place I've seen poll results publicly touted is on billboards in Indiana, and in Bizarro's station.

Relatively very few new guests are traveling to Cedar Point for the first time to ride Millennium Force because it's the #1 steel coaster in the world. They go to the park because of it's collection of roller coasters.

Either way, the public has no idea who Intamin is or what rides they've built.

Tomes said:

Despite all the problems, what do you think would happen to Cedar Point if Maverick, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster would were demolished tomorrow? I'll tell you what would happen - it would SUCK.

Why did demolishing functioning rides become part of the discussion? Again, it's irrelevant to this conversation.

But since you brought it up, I'd miss MF, but I'd still have an absolute blast at Cedar Point riding Magnum, Gemini, Raptor, Blue Streak, Mantis, and especially Gatekeeper.

Tomes said:

In most parks, the best rides, the rides that bring the most visitors, are the Intamins, and then the Beemers. Cedar Point had 4 Intamins in a row, and no beemer since like 1996... It was obvious that they would need to catch up in order to diversify their portfolio. With either a wing-rider or a massive flyer.

I disagree completely. Just because you feel that the best rides are Intamin, does not mean that we all do. And it certainly doesn't mean the GP do. I think the GP loves B&M coasters more, to be honest.

Look at Kings Dominion. Sure, I-305 is more marketable, but Dominator dominates I-305 in yearly ridership.

Cedar Point's decision to go with B&M for Gatekeeper has nothing to do with "diversifying". That's enthusiast talk. More than likely it's that B&M has a product in the wing rider that will be the next big thing.

It may even have something to do with the problems Cedar Fair has had with the Intamin ride's they've purchased.

Tomes said:

Yes, there have been modifications and annoyances, but that's what happens when parks want "biggest" and "fastest".

Yes, problematic and expensive modifications. How many modifications has B&M done?

The modifications have nothing to do with size and speed. They have everything to do with less than stellar design and engineering.

Tomes said:

It's just that Intamin was willing to go there, whereas B&M stayed rather tame.

Bull. They build reliable, rideable rides.

Tomes said:

The risks were taken knowingly. What new technologies did B&M develop in the past 10 years? Flying coaster and Wing Rider. That's it.

Intamin has created and combined so many new elements including a hydraulic launch, super-steep overbanked curves, insane side-changers ("twisties") Norwegian loops, 12-inversion coasters...

Insane side changers? That's a technology?
Norwegian loops - really?
And where's that 12 inversion coaster operating... ?

Tomes said:

They're NOT going down. Don't worry.

I hope not, but I'm not so sure you're right on that one. Evidence would lead me to believe that U.S. parks, in the immediate future, will go elsewhere for their steel coasters.

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by chitlins73 chitlins73 Profile at 10/9/12 3:36:48 PM
I am with you Tomes all the way!!! I would be a bored coaster enthusiast if not for the amazing intamin coaster designs!! B&M may be reliable but there coasters bore me to be honest.Just went on I-305 again this weekend.Let's see B&M come up with a coaster like this and maybe we can talk!! By far the best steel coaster on the planet!!
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by frontrow frontrow Profile at 10/9/12 4:05:25 PM
chitlins73 said:

I am with you Tomes all the way!!! I would be a bored coaster enthusiast if not for the amazing intamin coaster designs!! B&M may be reliable but there coasters bore me to be honest.Just went on I-305 again this weekend.Let's see B&M come up with a coaster like this and maybe we can talk!! By far the best steel coaster on the planet!!

I have to say that I like both Intamin and B&M coasters. Soon after this thread was started I took a look at my favorite coasters. Intamin has my favorite wooden coaster and 4 out of my top 5 steel coasters. After that its a mix of Intamin and B&M.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 4:26:00 PM
frontrow said:

I have to say that I like both Intamin and B&M coasters. Soon after this thread was started I took a look at my favorite coasters. Intamin has my favorite wooden coaster and 4 out of my top 5 steel coasters. After that its a mix of Intamin and B&M.

Though you may not believe it, me too. I think Intamin has built the best wooden and steel coaster, respectively, that I've ridden.

I would rate Bizarro, MF, and I-305 over any B&M coaster.

But, as I've said, for this discussion, we need to remove the enthusiast hat, and put on a management cap. I'm looking at this from a totally different perspective.

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by SirWillow SirWillow Profile at 10/9/12 6:38:39 PM
But the point isn't what coasters are the enthusiasts' favorites or top ranked. We are only a very small percentage of the people who go to the parks.

The point is what coasters are going to be the best return on investment for the parks? Which ones are going to bring in the larger numbers of people to the parks and have them spending their money? Which ones are the regular guests going to want to ride, ride again, then come back on another visit and ride another time? Which ones are going to maintain those ridership numbers over a long period of time?

And which ones are, right now, showing that they are the better investment.

Intamin has built some great rides, but when it comes to that all important dollar and which is going to make the park the most money for what they spend, they're finding that B&M is making them more money and for the longer term- at least as a general rule and with a few exceptions.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by ray_p ray_p Profile at 10/9/12 7:07:38 PM
I just wanted to post in this thread so that I too could be considered what Robb Alvey is calling a bunch of "f***ing morons" (that is a direct quote from TPR's webmaster.)

God forbid some people discuss roller coasters and their own opinions on a message board dedicated to roller coasters. While I doubt Intamin is in any trouble, I don't see the harm in discussing a topic that could be mildly interesting and don't understand why the f bomb needed to be dropped. But hey, what do I know?

Stay classy Robb.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 7:11:53 PM
SirWillow said:

But the point isn't what coasters are the enthusiasts' favorites or top ranked. We are only a very small percentage of the people who go to the parks.


The point is what coasters are going to be the best return on investment for the parks? Which ones are going to bring in the larger numbers of people to the parks and have them spending their money? Which ones are the regular guests going to want to ride, ride again, then come back on another visit and ride another time? Which ones are going to maintain those ridership numbers over a long period of time?

And which ones are, right now, showing that they are the better investment.

Intamin has built some great rides, but when it comes to that all important dollar and which is going to make the park the most money for what they spend, they're finding that B&M is making them more money and for the longer term- at least as a general rule and with a few exceptions.

Exactly. Very well said, Sir Willow.

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 7:12:56 PM
ray_p said:

I just wanted to post in this thread so that I too could be considered what Robb Alvey is calling a bunch of "f***ing morons" (that is a direct quote from TPR's webmaster.)

To what are you referring? Did I miss something?

Alvey's opinion carries very little weight with me - always has.

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 7:22:07 PM
Nevermind, I found it. I couldn't be more proud that Alvey called me a "f**king moron." That means that our opinions are that different. I'm proud to be at the opposite end of the spectrum from him.

The direct quote:

OMG! I love how they are calling this "Intamin's demise" - what a bunch of f**king morons. Yes, URC, this is "Intamin's Demise" because the company that makes most of the world's top roller coasters is never going to be hired again due to ...whatever unknown reason... has caused SkyRush to be shut down for a whole THREE weekends of the season.

It sometimes embarrasses me how stupid the enthusiast community can be, when we are all supposed to be "experts" on the subject...

Seriously, I can't see this being a big deal...

He's, of course, implying that this Skyrush news is the "Intamin Demise" I originally posted about. Clearly his reading comprehension is about as good as those that post in his forum. Clearly we are all totally overreacting over here...

It's impossible for this guy to look at a discussion from anyone else's perspective.

No Alvey, you and your club are THE embarrassment of the enthusiast community.

Thank goodness for places like URC.

* This post was modified at 10/9/12 9:52:02 PM *

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 10/9/12 7:46:47 PM
LMAO! Just makes me prouder and prouder of being a part of this forum. Embarrassment of the enthusiast community is quite the understatement.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Tomes at 10/9/12 7:53:36 PM
I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I think you're exactly wrong:

drachen said:

Tomes said:

But trust me, Intamin is not going down. They have, hmm, let's see - the tallest and fastest rides in the world, the rides with the most inversions, some of the longest and most intense rides, the #1 wooden coaster, the #1 steel coaster, for many years now... Not really a terrible record, if you think about it from a marketing stand point.

Their history has nothing to do with this thread, or the current problems the company faces. I think it's completely irrelevant to this conversation.

The general public couldn't care less about an enthusiast-based poll. The only place I've seen poll results publicly touted is on billboards in Indiana, and in Bizarro's station.

y

Ummm... What has every brought more guests in than a "RECORD BREAKING NEW COASTER"??? Yeah, the GP doesn't know who Intamin is, but the Park does! Six Flags didn't "Accidentally" bring Intamin to build a CLONE of dragster that's just a tiny bit taller so that it can claim the record! This has NOTHING to do with being an enthusiast, quite the opposite. I'm looking at it from an average Joe's point of view. Amusement parks know if they want to advertise extreme, new, record breaking rides that they can market, they will probably contract Intamin. Facts prove this point. (Facts being, all the records are owned by Intamin. Parks that have big and famous intamin bring in millions of people. Fact.)

drachen said:

Relatively very few new guests are traveling to Cedar Point for the first time to ride Millennium Force because it's the #1 steel coaster in the world. They go to the park because of it's collection of roller coasters.

Either way, the public has no idea who Intamin is or what rides they've built.

Right the GP doesn't know WHO built the rides. But why do you think SO many non-enthusiests travel across the country and sometimes across the world to come to Cedar Point? Because they think Mantis is neat? Because they find Magnum nostalgic? No, because they heard and saw on discovery channel and the travel channel how amazing dragster is and how insane Millennium force is. Because their structures dominate the skyline of Sandusky and the Cedar Point peninsula. Because these rides are world famous, regardless of whether you're an enthusiast or not. Just like the statue of liberty is famous, and the eiffel tower - if you are into that sort of stuff, you have seen Millennium Force on TV.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

Despite all the problems, what do you think would happen to Cedar Point if Maverick, Millennium Force, Wicked Twister and Top Thrill Dragster would were demolished tomorrow? I'll tell you what would happen - it would SUCK.

Why did demolishing functioning rides become part of the discussion? Again, it's irrelevant to this conversation.

But since you brought it up, I'd miss MF, but I'd still have an absolute blast at Cedar Point riding Magnum, Gemini, Raptor, Blue Streak, Mantis, and especially Gatekeeper.

So, I think you, my friend, are putting on the enthusiast hat.. the GP doesn't give a darn about Blue Streak or Gemini. YOU, as an enthusiast, also appreciate the old ones, but which lines do you think are longer, Mantis's and Blue Streak's or Maverick's and TTD's? It's not about which ones "You" would miss. It's about what the park would look like if it didnt have it's 3 most people-attracting coasters. That's why I gave this example, not because I want them to demolish the rides.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

In most parks, the best rides, the rides that bring the most visitors, are the Intamins, and then the Beemers. Cedar Point had 4 Intamins in a row, and no beemer since like 1996... It was obvious that they would need to catch up in order to diversify their portfolio. With either a wing-rider or a massive flyer.

I disagree completely. Just because you feel that the best rides are Intamin, does not mean that we all do. And it certainly doesn't mean the GP do. I think the GP loves B&M coasters more, to be honest.

Look at Kings Dominion. Sure, I-305 is more marketable, but Dominator dominates I-305 in yearly ridership.

Cedar Point's decision to go with B&M for Gatekeeper has nothing to do with "diversifying". That's enthusiast talk. More than likely it's that B&M has a product in the wing rider that will be the next big thing.

It may even have something to do with the problems Cedar Fair has had with the Intamin ride's they've purchased.

2 points: 1. It's not about what "I feel" or what "you think". The Intamin rides are always on the front of the broschure and have the longest lines. One exception is rides that are close to the front of the park. I don't care if you're at Cedar Point or if you're at disney land - the rides either closest to the gates or are in the main public hangouts are going to have a huge line, hence why Dominator, raptor, Tatsu/X2 will almost always have a big line on a crowded day. I'm not saying people always like Intimidator over Dominator, no. Some will like dominator, because it's tall, it's fast, and it turns you upside down "a bunch of times" with your feet hanging out. Yes, that's a good marketing aspect. But when you ask regular people at the end of the day "which coaster was the scariest? which coaster was your favorite?" they will, in most cases, say the tallest and fastest ones, which usually happen to be the Intamins. My opinion is irrelevant.

Point 2. There is some significance to diversifying. Parks are trying to market something "NEW", something "DIFFERENT". They wouldn't build a second raptor even if it was bigger and with more "loops" (inversions, in non-enthusiasts talk) because other people would be like, oh, it's just like raptor, but better. They bring in coasters that A. provide the riders more adrenaline, so the rider can go "OH MY GOSH THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!!!! LET'S DO IT AGAIN!!" and B. provide riders with different experience that they can't feel on other coasters in the park. BUT, To your point, they don't need to switch companies to obtain that. And yes, I'm sure they DO take some of the problems they've had with Intamin into consideration. But I'm just saying I don't think they're going down.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

Yes, there have been modifications and annoyances, but that's what happens when parks want "biggest" and "fastest".

Yes, problematic and expensive modifications. How many modifications has B&M done?

The modifications have nothing to do with size and speed. They have everything to do with less than stellar design and engineering.

What are you basing that on? The park says "I want the tallest coaster in the entire eastern part of the States, and here is the space I have for it!" Yeah, instead of I305 they could have placed a very nice, 164ft tall standup from B&M and most likely it would have worked right the first time. But cramming a HUGE coaster that's 5100' in length into that area is more challenging. And guess what, Intamin managed. B&M didn't. As a mechanical engineer, I marvel more at the accomplishments and intensity of Intamin, which keeps trying to renovate their launches, their elements, restraints, and even track and supports. It's a continous process of improvements. It's not always perfect, and the timing schedule is not on their side, but B&M always uses the same track, trains and elements (loop, dive loop, 0-g roll, cobra roll, interlocking corkscrews...... more-or-less) and all they have to do is customize the track if the park is not building a clone of a batman or something.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

It's just that Intamin was willing to go there, whereas B&M stayed rather tame.

Bull. They build reliable, rideable rides.


Not bull. Fact. They were willing to go there. THey still have the tallest, fastest... etc.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

The risks were taken knowingly. What new technologies did B&M develop in the past 10 years? Flying coaster and Wing Rider. That's it.

Intamin has created and combined so many new elements including a hydraulic launch, super-steep overbanked curves, insane side-changers ("twisties") Norwegian loops, 12-inversion coasters...

Insane side changers? That's a technology?
Norwegian loops - really?
And where's that 12 inversion coaster operating... ?

It's a rennovation. B&M uses a lot of the same elements, like I mentioned earlier. Norwegian loops - yes, really. Another element that B&M doesn't use.

drachen said:

Tomes said:

They're NOT going down. Don't worry.

I hope not, but I'm not so sure you're right on that one. Evidence would lead me to believe that U.S. parks, in the immediate future, will go elsewhere for their steel coasters.


Anyway, even afte all the trash I'm talking about B&M I don't dislike them at all, and I don'tknow why this became a B&M vs. Intamin topic. I dindn't mean to do that, but I guess they are the two biggest competitors today. I LOVE B&M and as an engineer may want to work for them some time in the future. I'm just looking at the facts - over the past 12 years when parks wanted to break records, they contracted Intamin, over any other company. Their rides still draw the most guests and have some of the longest lines. Their rides are always on the commercials on TV on the the discovery channel shows that "REGULAR" people see. The parks are willing to take risks to break records, and I'm not saying that their unreliability doesn't hurt them. But they have a unique line of products that is very diverse and flexible and draws tons of guests and bragging rights to parks. They're not going down.
If anything, they will take a few years of lower coasters built (like this year) to improve on some of their failures and perfect the product.

That's my take, anyway.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 8:25:12 PM
Tomes said:

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I think you're exactly wrong:

Nope, YOU are wrong. And now you are BANNED FOR LIFE from this forum, because I don't like what you said.

Oh wait... wrong website!

-


All kidding aside, I appreciate your opinion and you are certainly entitled to everything you said - as am I.

I do think, however, that you are still looking at it from an enthusiast's perspective.

You're right, this isn't about who has the best rides. That debate will never be settled.

Go back and re-read my bullet points in the original post. For me, it's always been about recent industry trends that may spell doom for Intamin's short term future success in the United States. That's all.

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Tomes at 10/9/12 8:42:07 PM
drachen said:

Tomes said:

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I think you're exactly wrong:

Nope, YOU are wrong. And now you are BANNED FOR LIFE from this forum, because I don't like what you said.

Oh wait... wrong website!

-


All kidding aside, I appreciate your opinion and you are certainly entitled to everything you said - as am I.

I do think, however, that you are still looking at it from an enthusiast's perspective.

You're right, this isn't about who has the best rides. That debate will never be settled.

Go back and re-read my bullet points in the original post. For me, it's always been about recent industry trends that may spell doom for Intamin's short term future success in the United States. That's all.

Yep, neither you nor I will decide the fate of IntaRide... Only time will tell and this is just a discussion forum. Whoever this Robb Alvey is, he sounds very angry. I don't understand how RIVALRIES are formed between RC sites. Lol. That's ridiculous, all it is is just a bunch of people who like roller coasters.. what is there to hate about???

PS Darchen, are you an admin of this site? Or the creator?

* This post was modified at 10/9/12 8:53:17 PM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by ray_p ray_p Profile at 10/9/12 8:46:48 PM
drachen said:

All kidding aside, I appreciate your opinion and you are certainly entitled to everything you said - as am I.

That's all I ever look for in a forum. Respect someone else's opinion,even if it doesn't match up with your own. I don't expect everyone to agree. That would make for a very boring world. But seriously, i don't see any reason whatsoever for the f bomb when it comes to drachen's post. The obscenities were completely uncalled for, especially considering that the post didn't even originate on his forum.

Drachen, you know I respect you and your opinion. You're one of the better posters here and you voice your opinion in a well constructed manner. An f-ing moron you certainly are not.

And to get back on topic, Intamin currently has the #1 and #3 coasters on my top steel coaster list, so they must be doing something right. Of course, I liked Son of Beast too, so my opinion means nothing. ;)

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by BigShotRoz BigShotRoz Profile at 10/9/12 10:27:46 PM
I do know some people in the know about CP's Intamins. All I can say is that they were less than totally impressed by design problems (the removed inversion on Maverick), poor tolerances during construction as compared to the Beemers, and concerns with restraints and cables. On the other hand, CP has worked out some operational kinks with hydraulic fluid, overheated wheels, etc, and they even run Millennium in the rain now. And Dragster is much more reliable now than a few years ago.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 11:18:05 PM
Tomes said:

Whoever this Robb Alvey is, he sounds very angry. I don't understand how RIVALRIES are formed between RC sites. Lol. That's ridiculous

PS Drachen, are you an admin of this site? Or the creator?

To answer your question, no. That would be Eric Gieszl.

There is really no rivalry of sites, so to speak, with URC. People seem to just find a forum that fits them. This one is a great fit for me.

I liked your post before you edited it. You had "Bob Avery" as his name. I like that you don't know who he is. He is the creator of Theme Park Review .com - a very popular, yet irreverent discussion forum.

In saying you were banned for life, I was making a play on what apparently happens to you if you disagree with "Bob Avery" on his site.

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/9/12 11:21:31 PM
ray_p said:

drachen said:


All kidding aside, I appreciate your opinion and you are certainly entitled to everything you said - as am I.

That's all I ever look for in a forum. Respect someone else's opinion,even if it doesn't match up with your own. I don't expect everyone to agree. That would make for a very boring world. But seriously, i don't see any reason whatsoever for the f bomb when it comes to drachen's post. The obscenities were completely uncalled for, especially considering that the post didn't even originate on his forum.

Drachen, you know I respect you and your opinion. You're one of the better posters here and you voice your opinion in a well constructed manner. An f-ing moron you certainly are not.

Agreed. And thanks for the kind words.

Again, I don't really value Alvey's opinion. What he had to say only bothered me because he clearly didn't read my original post before commenting the way he did.

And I really didn't like that he felt the need to insult all of URC on his site. Seriously, what a maroon...

* This post was modified at 10/9/12 11:22:34 PM *

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 10/9/12 11:34:17 PM
BigShotRoz said:

I do know some people in the know about CP's Intamins. All I can say is that they were less than totally impressed by design problems (the removed inversion on Maverick), poor tolerances during construction as compared to the Beemers, and concerns with restraints and cables. On the other hand, CP has worked out some operational kinks with hydraulic fluid, overheated wheels, etc, and they even run Millennium in the rain now. And Dragster is much more reliable now than a few years ago.

And that is what Drachen's post boils down to. Popularity of the rides and rankings mean nothing if the operators are dissatisfied with Intamin's delivery of their multi-million dollar attraction and if they have to spend millions in reprofiling, delays, and other maintenance (wheels, cooling systems, restraint replacements, etc).

Like I said earlier, I think it is too soon to call for Intamin's "demise" here in the US because their rides are "cheap" compared to their competitors. But I would be surprised to see any of the "burned" parks or even Cedar Fair or Six Flags go to them for another ride. These places are businesses and Intamin with all their drama is not good for business. If they do, it has be one heck of a deal.

Paul

And for the record, B&M builds what park operators ask for. If someone asks for a record breaking coaster, they can and will do it. The problem is that Intamin can do it way cheaper and so far, no park is willing to pay that price. Obviously, with Leviathan, that is changing as Wonderland could have easily went with an Intamin but instead paid B&M to do it (I would not hesitate to speculate that they were watching what was going on here in Virginia with I-305 when they made that decision.)

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Tomes at 10/9/12 11:39:00 PM
Yeah, I did a little bit of research.. lol.

He does sound angry, for cursing on his site and insulting members of his community. But I do have a lot of respect for Theme Park Review as a site. They are usually up to date on their info and have great videos of rides all over the world. But forget that - let people argue about Intamin. This is what this thread is about.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by squirrels at 10/11/12 8:13:00 PM
"Demise" is a little melodramatic. Intamin is fine. I didn't see people getting off SkyRush complaining or doubled-over in pain. It was plenty packed toward the end of the day.

Intamin is all about pushing the envelope. Sometimes they push too far. But sooner or later they get it right. I305 with the widened first turn is superb. Maverick, other than being a head-boxer, is the most packed ride at Cedar Point, with waits regularly over 2 hours, more than MF, more than TTD. Once the restraint issue is solved, SkyRush will be another home run. If they "trim" anything, it should be that last hard twist at the end...that's where the thighs take the most abuse.

A lot of parks are saturated with Intamin rides right now. They need something that's going to appeal to a wider rider base, not just the ultra-thrillseekers, so they're looking to B&M, Premier, GCI.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/12/12 11:29:16 AM
squirrels said:

"Demise" is a little melodramatic.

Well, admittedly, I used a word that would attract more clicks of the mouse...

I never really implied that Intamin was going down. I consistently referred to IntaRide, Intamin's American division, as the one that may be in trouble.

squirrels said:

Intamin is fine. I didn't see people getting off SkyRush complaining or doubled-over in pain. It was plenty packed toward the end of the day.

Skyrush, on a typical summer day, does about 8500-9000 people, assuming continuous operations at 750 pph (which is 30 person train every 2.5 minutes) over a 12 hour day. When there are 30,000 people in the park, in theory it will take all day for 1/3 of the people in the park to get one ride.

As a result, you have a long line, all day long, of people that are riding it for the first time, some wanting to give it another try, people that didn't get on it last time they visited the park, and even those that actually like it.

A lot of the people you see later in the day are ones that didn't want to wait for it early. The ride will always have a long line due to its limited hourly capacity.

squirrels said:

Intamin is all about pushing the envelope. Sometimes they push too far. But sooner or later they get it right. I305 with the widened first turn is superb. Maverick, other than being a head-boxer, is the most packed ride at Cedar Point, with waits regularly over 2 hours, more than MF, more than TTD. Once the restraint issue is solved, SkyRush will be another home run. If they "trim" anything, it should be that last hard twist at the end...that's where the thighs take the most abuse.

A lot of parks are saturated with Intamin rides right now. They need something that's going to appeal to a wider rider base, not just the ultra-thrillseekers, so they're looking to B&M, Premier, GCI.

The pushing the envelope thing has been discussed already in this thread. For what purpose? Do parks really want an envelope-pushing ride if said envelope-pushing is going to be a mechanical nightmare? The answer is no.

That is all the more reason to go with a company like B&M that has proven itself over and over again to build reliable, popular rides.

Saturation with Intamin rides and adding variety by manufacturer is mostly enthusiast speak again.

If a park has a good relationship with a manufacturer, and if the manufacturer delivers a good product, and if they continue to grow their ride offerings, there is no reason to end the relationship.

The variety parks are looking for are sit-down versus inverted, versus megacoaster, versus wooden, versus wing-rider, etc. The variety in manufacturer at parks is simply due to who does the particular style of ride better.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/12/12 11:29:46 AM
alpengeistno3 said:

And for the record, B&M builds what park operators ask for. If someone asks for a record breaking coaster, they can and will do it. The problem is that Intamin can do it way cheaper and so far, no park is willing to pay that price. Obviously, with Leviathan, that is changing as Wonderland could have easily went with an Intamin but instead paid B&M to do it (I would not hesitate to speculate that they were watching what was going on here in Virginia with I-305 when they made that decision.)

Exactly. B&M can really design whatever they want - and whatever they are asked to build. If they limit themselves on "forces" it's because they seeming understand engineering and physics better...

Let's not underestimate the role of Werner Stengel in this whole thing. It would seem to me that he is not designing anymore, at least per RCDB. They have him listed as the designer of hundreds of coasters, including most of B&M's looping coasters and almost all of Intamin's roller coasters.

But in both companies' most recent coasters, his name is not mentioned. Is he done designing? Is that why Skyrush and I-305 have had issues? Is Sandor Kernacs the link?

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Absimilliard Absimilliard Profile at 10/12/12 1:46:40 PM
Great posts! I am not at my computer and will post my full answer when i get home.

Regarding the stengel engineering office, they are still designing rides, just not for Intamin and B&M. Mack went to them a few years ago and their coasters are now much better. Gerstlauer also work with them.

Intamin does a lot of overseas stuff, but it will have to wait before i can elaborate on that.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 10/12/12 2:19:31 PM
I've been dying to respond to this post and I finally got my computer back from the shop (I can't stand typing long things on the droid)

I will try to address some of the things I've been reading.

#1: I too had no idea who Alvey was and he is the f*ing moron for posting such a ridiculous comment on his own page. Perhaps he's bashing us URCers b/c he's jealous that we have way more interesting topics that are not censored like his crappy forum.

#2 Those that keep using Maverick's line as ammunition for Intamin having sought after rides are out of their minds. That ride breaks down several times a day and has terrible capacity to begin with, hence the perpetual 2 hour wait. All 5 times I have been to CP Maverick has been down several times throughout the day - sometimes wasting 1+ hours in line. I won't wait for it if there's a long line anymore. Not because I hate it but because I'm not taking the chance on wasting an hour or two that I could be riding other things.

#3 Squirrels if you didn't see anyone complaining after getting off Skyrush you weren't paying enough attention. You could hear the moans of pain during the ride as well. That restraint system is a disaster and that ride is not built for the GP. Even I, as an enthusiast, hated it and found it was the absolute most uncomfortable ride I have ever been on (with exception of the SLCs of course - but that's a different kind of pain).

#4 I agree with Drachen's assessment and rebuttals. They may be in trouble over the next few years if they don't figure out how to start making reliable rides that attract both the GP and enthusiasts alike. Can't win if you only cater to one or the other. B & M caters to both and does it well IMO.

#5 Intamin coasters are among my favorites as well (you know I'm all about the launch!) but they have some serious reliability issues. KK at the beginning of the season was down quite a bit and hardly ever opened with the park. Now, when it went down it was only for 20 - 30 min at a time, but that still is a problem. Has been running much more consistently at the end of the season. ET is probably the most reliable coaster they have made and why more aren't built is beyond me.

Perhaps the good thing that will come out of all this is they will have to lower their pricing to get customers and that could only be great news for us - more new coasters built!

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/17/12 12:03:54 PM
North American Installation, B&M versus Intamin Since 2000:

Year------------B&M------------Intamin
2000 ------------ 4 --------------- 4 (1 of which was an Impulse)
2001 ------------ 3 --------------- 3 (2 Impulses)
2002 ------------ 3 --------------- 3 (1 Impulse)
2003 ------------ 3 --------------- 2 (1 Impulse)
2004 ------------ 1 --------------- 2 (1 Half Pipe)
2005 ------------ 2 --------------- 1
2006 ------------ 4 --------------- 1
2007 ------------ 1 --------------- 1
2008 ------------ 3 --------------- 2
2009 ------------ 2 --------------- 0
2010 ------------ 1 --------------- 1
2011 ------------ 0 --------------- 2 (1 Zac Spin)
2012 ------------ 2 --------------- 1
2013 ------------ 1 --------------- 0
2014 ------------ 1 --------------- 0
Total ----------- 31 --------------- 23

It's interesting to see that B&M has essentially dominated Intamin in the new millennium in the number of installations.

If you take out the 7 gimmick (but fun) Intamin rides, it leaves them with 16 full sized, complete circuit roller coasters - about half of what B&M has done.

It looks to me that there's a clear preference here in the U.S.

* This post was modified at 9/20/13 10:32:35 AM *

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 10/23/12 1:13:53 PM
As I was updating the 'New For 2013' thread. I had a thought...

With big parks like Kings Island, Great Adventure, SFoT, Knott's, Carowinds, SFoG, Dorney, Kennywood, and Holiday World all likely/possibly due for a new roller coaster in the near future, 2014 might be a very telling year as to Intamin's future U.S. prospects.

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 10/23/12 8:53:32 PM
drachen said:

As I was updating the 'New For 2013' thread. I had a thought...


With big parks like Kings Island, Great Adventure, SFoT, Knott's, Carowinds, SFoG, Dorney, Kennywood, and Holiday World all likely/possibly due for a new roller coaster in the near future, 2014 might be a very telling year as to Intamin's future U.S. prospects.

Well I hope Intamin is SOL because I want a dive coaster at Gadv! :~)

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 10/23/12 10:43:01 PM
GoYanks34 said:


Well I hope Intamin is SOL because I want a dive coaster at Gadv! :~)

Jen

So you want to "cheat" right in your "boyfriend's" house?

Lol ;)
Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 10/24/12 12:08:49 AM
lol, half the height yet smoother and more reliable? Choices, choices... :) But if they were to add a dive machine, I hope it does more than 1 loop and 2 immelmans.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Absimilliard Absimilliard Profile at 10/24/12 2:26:44 AM
Intamin has been having a lot more success overseas since a few years than here in the States. They also do a whole lot more than coasters. The two Back to the Future/Simpsons ride attractions at Universal Studios Florida and Hollywood are from them. The now gone Jaws ride too. They seemingly will do anything for parks.

If you go to Asia, you will actually see parks that seemingly have the whole Intamin ride collection. A favorite of mine is this place called Leofoo Village in Taiwan. From Intamin, they have a junior spinning coaster, buried Impulse Coaster, log flume, raft ride, large swinging ship, motion simulator, tow boat ride (a boat is pulled through show scenes by an underwater drive cable), giant drop and something unique, an EMV (Enhanced Movement Vehicle) dark ride. The Intamin dark ride is a knock off of the amazing Disney EMV ride system used for Indiana Jones Adventure at Disneyland and Dinosaur at Animal Kingdom. In this case, it has an arabian nights theme and cost something like 30 million dollars US to build 10 years ago.

Over in the US, the only park to have gone for such a package is Disney's California Adventure back in 2001. It opened with an Intamin looping coaster (California Screamin'), Coaster Wheel (Sun Wheel, now Mickey's Fun Wheel), River Rapids (Grizzly River Run) and two junior parachute towers (Jumpin' Jellyfish).

Intamin is seeing great success selling large packages to parks like this. As long as they keep on doing that overseas, they can still survive, but will sadly not be a presence in the US anymore. The last hope in the US I see is if Walt Disney World build one of those Toy Story Playland area that opened at two overseas parks. They are a family area themed to Toy Story that feature an Intamin Musik Express (using a coaster ride system!), Junior Parachute Tower and non spinning car half pipe coaster. If they doubled up the rides, it would be a good thing for Disney Hollywood Studios.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 10/24/12 8:16:24 AM
alpengeistno3 said:

GoYanks34 said:



Well I hope Intamin is SOL because I want a dive coaster at Gadv! :~)

Jen

So you want to "cheat" right in your "boyfriend's" house?

Lol ;)
Paul

You know it! I figure he lets thousands of ladies "ride" him each week and There's nothing I can do about it because it's his "job". Excuses, excuses...

What's good for the goose is good for the gander! :-)

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 2/22/13 4:33:18 PM
Continuing the discussion a bit...

Now that Chance Rides offers an American-made "HyperLite", I would imagine that Intamin's "Mega-Lite" design might be that much less appealing to North American parks.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by beastmaster beastmaster Profile at 2/22/13 6:40:30 PM
I rarely use the term "meh," but...

Meh.

Doesn't look particularly exciting to me, but I can't base an opinion on computer animation.

Mike

The amusement park rises bold and stark
Kids are huddled on the beach in a mist...
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 2/22/13 9:50:37 PM
If they tore down hurler at KD for that, it could ease the void for the younger riders, if anaconda was to be torn down for hopefully a winged coaster.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 2/28/13 7:41:57 PM
That Chance ride, in the video simulation, doesn't look terribly thrilling. But it looks fun, and I think that's what that ride's customer will be looking for.

In other "Intamin Issue" news...

Skyrush has apparently been pulled off the rides list for Hersheypark's Springtime in the Park event, which is scheduled to begin March 29th.

The fact that it was once on the list, and later removed, leads me to believe that there is a problem. Likely, whatever closed Skyrush early last October is keeping it from opening on time this year.

And to quote the off-base TPR statement from above:

Alvey said:
Yes, URC, this is "Intamin's Demise" because the company that makes most of the world's top roller coasters is never going to be hired again due to ...whatever unknown reason... has caused SkyRush to be shut down for a whole THREE weekends of the season.

Anyone can see that Skyrush's closure had nothing to do with my original post - in fact the ride closed about a week after I started this thread. That's irrelevant now.

But, surprise, surprise - Alvey's probably wrong again. Since it's likely the same issue, it's obviously not just "a whole THREE weekends of the season". It's extended into the spring.

Hopefully there isn't an issue. If there is, hopefully it doesn't run into the summer. But if you're headed to Hersheypark in the Spring, and want to ride Skyrush, unfortunately, you won't.

drachen
Coaster to Park Ratio: 4.87 / Steel to Wooden Ratio: 2.57 / Wooden Coaster Percentage: 28%
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 2/28/13 9:24:11 PM
This doesn't surprise me one bit. If Intamin is having to redesign the train, there has to be testing. (most likely intensive since the 1st train on Skyrush was a prototype to begin with). And that has to be done during the spring when the weather is warmer.

Depending on the extent of the redesign, it wouldn't surprise me if Skyrush isn't up and running until right before Memorial Day, if not later.

Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Great_Ump Great_Ump Profile at 2/28/13 10:29:23 PM
drachen said:

\
And to quote the off-base TPR statement from above:

Alvey said:
Yes, URC, this is "Intamin's Demise" because the company that makes most of the world's top roller coasters is never going to be hired again due to ...whatever unknown reason... has caused SkyRush to be shut down for a whole THREE weekends of the season.

Anyone can see that Skyrush's closure had nothing to do with my original post - in fact the ride closed about a week after I started this thread. That's irrelevant now.

But, surprise, surprise - Alvey's probably wrong again. Since it's likely the same issue, it's obviously not just "a whole THREE weekends of the season". It's extended into the spring.

Pre-TPR, Alvey use to be a regular around here and people didn't put up with his BS. I can't take a guy seriously who publicly bashes parks on his own threads but expects the parks to bow down and worship him like he's the second coming of Christ.

Personally, I say let him continue to operate his site the way he chooses, say the things he wants to say, and continue to be worshiped by his core audience which is teenage boys under the age of 18.

That way, we don't have trolls like Alvey constantly giving their opinions when quite frankly no one cares.

I was banned from TPR for simply being friends with someone that he doesn't like on FB.

He's a black eye for the enthusiast community.

Don't take him seriously.

The rest of the community doesn't.

Joe
Great_Ump

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 3/2/13 10:15:12 PM
Great_Ump said:

I was banned from TPR for simply being friends with someone that he doesn't like on FB.

Joe
Great_Ump

Are you kidding me?! Seriously? What the hell is wrong with that guy? (who I had never even heard of before he started bashing posts on here)

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by NotSo NotSo Profile at 3/3/13 6:35:19 AM
GoYanks34 said:

Great_Ump said:


I was banned from TPR for simply being friends with someone that he doesn't like on FB.

Joe
Great_Ump

Are you kidding me?! Seriously? What the hell is wrong with that guy? (who I had never even heard of before he started bashing posts on here)

Jen

you got banned for being gay Joe... (not that there's anything wrong with that..)

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by John_Knotts John_Knotts Profile at 3/3/13 1:55:57 PM
Ignore Alvey. The Alveys are Intamin fanboys who would defend them regardless of any evidence to the contrary. He calls Californians horrible people and calls Americans a word I won't repeat here. The weight of his opinion outside TPR is non-existant.

Intamin will be fine. Right now parks seem less attracted to "pushing limits", and more to comfortable, fun and reliable rides for their guests to enjoy. Intamin also has far more competition then they did a decade ago. More companies during what they do, only more reliably and also cheaper.

This will only push Intamin to up their game so to speak, while hopefully offering less problematic coasters.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by more-velocity at 4/7/13 11:09:27 AM
HI GUYS IM THE NEW GIRL ON THE BLOCK, NICE TO MEET YOU.I THINK INTAMIN IS AN AWESOME COMPANY. THEY SHOULD STAY IN BUSINESS AND STILL MAKE COASTERS. WHO DOSEN'T HAVE AN ENGINEERING FLAW EVERY NOW AND THEN! REMEMBER BATMAN AND ROBIN FROM PREMIER RIDES AT GREAT ADVENTURE?
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 4/7/13 4:15:05 PM
For the future, please don't type in all caps. It's like shouting.

For batman and robin, I never got to ride it as I visited the park in 2008 when it was gone, but for a park like gadv, I'm not sure a shuttle coaster is ideal given how many people are at the park. Low capacity rides with single trains are just bad for large parks IMO.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 4/8/13 12:38:44 PM
Looks like CP is re-thinking their love affair with Intamin. The following quote is found in the Gatekeeper article (see link) in the Toledo Blade. lol

"Overall, GateKeeper construction has been smooth, Mr. Lococo said. “B&M, they’re the best in the industry. When you get a B&M ride, they fit together real nice and you never have any issues. Other manufacturers — you have problems and you usually end up having to fabricate [more steel]. But B&M, they’re the Cadillac of the industry."

I think Intamin is great, but I hope they take the hint and work on perfecting what they have for a while instead of pushing the limits.

Gatekeeper Article

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 4/8/13 5:07:22 PM
Speaking of CP, have they had any major issues with MF? It seems to be relatively issue free compared to it's 'cousin' I305.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 4/8/13 8:04:12 PM
Not really sure if there were any major issues with MF, but it seems like there were issues with the lift cable and maybe the wheels. Can't recall for sure.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 4/8/13 8:12:39 PM
Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

Not really sure if there were any major issues with MF, but it seems like there were issues with the lift cable and maybe the wheels. Can't recall for sure.

It's had issues and some down time (I do recall lift cable problems at some point) but nothing compared to the other Intamin coasters like Maverick, TTD, KK, etc. It's probably Intamin's most reliable large-scale coaster.

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 4/8/13 8:33:14 PM
I see, thanks for the replies!
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 4/9/13 11:33:13 AM
Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

Looks like CP is re-thinking their love affair with Intamin. The following quote is found in the Gatekeeper article (see link) in the Toledo Blade. lol

Until now, if one was to tell me is the Toledo Blade a newspaper, or minor league hockey team, I would've picked the latter choice, LOL. One thing about it though, those weird newspaper names are hard to forget.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by beastmaster beastmaster Profile at 4/9/13 11:40:03 AM
My favorite was always the Sacramento Bee.
The amusement park rises bold and stark
Kids are huddled on the beach in a mist...
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Great_Ump Great_Ump Profile at 4/9/13 11:50:12 AM
GoYanks34 said:

Rollercoaster_freak220 said:

Not really sure if there were any major issues with MF, but it seems like there were issues with the lift cable and maybe the wheels. Can't recall for sure.

It's had issues and some down time (I do recall lift cable problems at some point) but nothing compared to the other Intamin coasters like Maverick, TTD, KK, etc. It's probably Intamin's most reliable large-scale coaster.

Jen

The last time I was at CP back in 2008, MF was routinely getting stuck on the lift over the three days I was there. Seemed like everytime we looked up at MF, a train was stuck near the top.

Joe
Great_Ump

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 4/9/13 8:53:52 PM
beastmaster said:

My favorite was always the Sacramento Bee.

That's the main one that came to my mind. Another quirky one is the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

* This post was modified at 4/9/13 8:55:04 PM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 4/9/13 10:18:44 PM
Cyclone_Phil said:

Speaking of CP, have they had any major issues with MF? It seems to be relatively issue free compared to it's 'cousin' I305.

I recall Intamin having the same wheel melting problems initially with MF that I-305 had. I believe they were able to solve it with either larger wheels or a different compound.

Not as drastic as I-305's reprofiling and watering system, but Intamin should have saw this coming long before the 1st train rolled out of the station on I-305.

Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 4/9/13 11:18:12 PM
Totally agreed. Now I dunno how much of a difference an over banked turn could've helped i305, but I think they could've done that from the start than the hard turn up the 2nd hill. The reprofiling really didn't do much to lessen the grey out.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 4/9/13 11:41:08 PM
Cyclone_Phil said:

Totally agreed. Now I dunno how much of a difference an over banked turn could've helped i305, but I think they could've done that from the start than the hard turn up the 2nd hill. The reprofiling really didn't do much to lessen the grey out.

Am I the only person in history that doesn't grey out on anything?! I am actually so curious as to what that feels like. Only since my ankle injury do I feel the G-forces in my feet now on Batman TR and Green Lantern - never felt that before. Feels good but weird on Batman - very tingly. Hurt very bad on GL last Monday (felt a lot of pressure and pain) but was OK when I rode the weekend before (it was cold so the ride was slower). That's as far as I've come to having G-forces affect me like that. Perhaps they'll work their way up one day (Just want it to happen once so I know what it feels like).

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 4/10/13 12:59:15 AM
I've never greyed-out either. I have had an interesting moment on MF when I started getting a little tunnel vision (no, not in the actual tunnels...) It was weird. I felt some pressure on my head and started to see some interesting colors and blur in my peripheral vision.

I think it was because I hadn't had anything to eat or drink in a while, cause that's the only time I've had anything like that happen on MF, or any other coaster.

* This post was modified at 4/10/13 1:13:08 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 4/10/13 1:07:09 AM
GoYanks34 said:

Cyclone_Phil said:

Totally agreed. Now I dunno how much of a difference an over banked turn could've helped i305, but I think they could've done that from the start than the hard turn up the 2nd hill. The reprofiling really didn't do much to lessen the grey out.

Am I the only person in history that doesn't grey out on anything?! I am actually so curious as to what that feels like. Only since my ankle injury do I feel the G-forces in my feet now on Batman TR and Green Lantern - never felt that before. Feels good but weird on Batman - very tingly. Hurt very bad on GL last Monday (felt a lot of pressure and pain) but was OK when I rode the weekend before (it was cold so the ride was slower). That's as far as I've come to having G-forces affect me like that. Perhaps they'll work their way up one day (Just want it to happen once so I know what it feels like).

Jen


I dunno, I mean I can ride it over and over 5 strait times and take a break, but I always get the grey outs on that turn. I guess it affects some folks differently. I don't remember what it was like on kk as that was in 2008 and I only had 2 rides on it. I think it must be the quick turn after the fast decent on i305 1st hill that causes it. I think a few times I greyed out just about the point where the train crests the 2nd hill.

* This post was modified at 4/10/13 1:36:03 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by theRock-steel theRock-steel Profile at 4/11/13 7:34:35 PM
I guess that it is funny with me and forces. Millennium Force, Top Thrill Dragster, Maverick, Volcano, El Toro, Kingda Ka, nor Fahrenheit have ever had an effect on me like we are talking about. The two Ride Of Steel's and Skyrush have made me feel a little goofy. The types of rides that affect me in the head the worst are not even by Intamin. Believe it or not they are all by Bolliger & Mabillard. They are the former Dueling Dragons and three of the seven Batmans that I have tried.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by frontrow frontrow Profile at 4/11/13 7:55:29 PM
My daughter and I had 3 consecutive rides on Kinda Ka on Easter Sunday, without getting off. We then got off, in order to get a front seat ride. We were staggering through the que, like 2 sailors leaving a bar at closing time. I never did grey out on KK, but those positive g's did slightly affect me.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Rollercoaster_freak220 Rollercoaster_freak220 Profile at 4/11/13 8:24:56 PM
I actually kinda liked having MF start to affect me like that. Helped confirm how powerful my favorite steel coaster can be. :)
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 7/19/13 11:19:25 PM
Re-hashing this post may be a bit self-serving, considering tonight's events. But at least everyone seems to be ok.

Put another feather in Intamin's ride-malfunction cap. Shoot the Rapids had a boat slide backwards down the first lift today, resulting in a capsizing at the bottom. The riders were trapped underwater until bystanders were able to rush in and flip them over. Crazy...

Thank goodness for good people who rushed into action. If I'm Cedar Point, those people get lifetime passes to the park (both riders and rescuers).

Shoot the Rapids Malfunction

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 7/20/13 12:52:22 PM
drachen said:

Re-hashing this post may be a bit self-serving, considering tonight's events. But at least everyone seems to be ok.


Put another feather in Intamin's ride-malfunction cap. Shoot the Rapids had a boat slide backwards down the first lift today, resulting in a capsizing at the bottom. The riders were trapped underwater until bystanders were able to rush in and flip them over. Crazy...

Thank goodness for good people who rushed into action. If I'm Cedar Point, those people get lifetime passes to the park (both riders and rescuers).

Thank God for those people who were waiting and acted without hesitation to get that boat upright - they all would have drowned. I'm with you - lifetime passes for all CF parks for anyone involved. This would have been much worse if the people on line/in the area didn't react the way they did. That is a big, heavy boat to begin with never mind full with people strapped in. The adrenaline rushing through their veins must have helped give them the strength to get it upright.

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 7/20/13 1:07:03 PM
GoYanks34 said:

Thank God for those people who were waiting and acted without hesitation to get that boat upright - they all would have drowned. I'm with you - lifetime passes for all CF parks for anyone involved. This would have been much worse if the people on line/in the area didn't react the way they did. That is a big, heavy boat to begin with never mind full with people strapped in. The adrenaline rushing through their veins must have helped give them the strength to get it upright.

Jen

Yep, those people are heroes.

I question why a boat ride would have restraints that you have no control over. Those people were trapped.

Perhaps a simple seat belt would be a better option. I know Shoot the Rapids is no typical log ride, but most flumes have no restraints at all.

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 7/20/13 3:22:57 PM
Well, you need not look any further than Intamin's giant boat rides for the answer to question about their restraint choice. (Perilous Plunge ring a bell?)

I think it is too soon to blame Intamin for this one. We don't know what caused the boat to roll back. Unless there is a design flaw with the boats, I don't think we can hold them liable for this one.

Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 7/20/13 5:52:31 PM
alpengeistno3 said:

Well, you need not look any further than Intamin's giant boat rides for the answer to question about their restraint choice. (Perilous Plunge ring a bell?)


I think it is too soon to blame Intamin for this one. We don't know what caused the boat to roll back. Unless there is a design flaw with the boats, I don't think we can hold them liable for this one.

Paul

How do you figure? I can't think of an acceptable reason for a boat to roll backwards down a lift. The anti-rollback, a mechanism that needs to work in any and all conditions, did not do its job of keeping the boat on the lift.

I would estimate that the chain lift didn't do its job either. Between the two, there is no way the boat should roll backwards.

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by NotSo NotSo Profile at 7/20/13 5:57:23 PM
I would have been in that water in a second trying to help, i'm sure most of us here would have done the same.

* This post was modified at 7/20/13 5:58:24 PM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 7/20/13 7:17:11 PM
drachen said:

alpengeistno3 said:

Well, you need not look any further than Intamin's giant boat rides for the answer to question about their restraint choice. (Perilous Plunge ring a bell?)


I think it is too soon to blame Intamin for this one. We don't know what caused the boat to roll back. Unless there is a design flaw with the boats, I don't think we can hold them liable for this one.

Paul

How do you figure? I can't think of an acceptable reason for a boat to roll backwards down a lift. The anti-rollback, a mechanism that needs to work in any and all conditions, did not do its job of keeping the boat on the lift.

I would estimate that the chain lift didn't do its job either. Between the two, there is no way the boat should roll backwards.

For what we know, right now, it could have been a problem with the boat. Maybe maintenance didn't tighten all the bolts? We don't know yet what caused it to roll back (seeing the little publicity the Cedar Point event got thanks to the NTG incident, we may never know.)

I do know all coasters have more than one anti roll back pawl. (B&M's have one over every unit/car). If the boats on Shoot the Rapids only have one, I do think that is a bone headed move on Intamin's part that should be filed away with all the rest of their engineering blunders.

Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by leviathan leviathan Profile at 7/20/13 10:52:34 PM
It's interesting to read some of the comments making the assumption that if you're a coaster enthusiast, you like extreme coasters like I305.

FWIW, I've ridden close to 200 different coasters and I have to say that I strongly disliked I305. I even gave it a second chance. Maybe when I was a bit younger...but graying out is just not fun to me. Only one other coaster has that happened to me on (Goliath).

Does that mean that I'm not a coaster enthusiast? I don't know. But I do know that KD seems to have wasted a lot of space with queuing area for a ride that has been a walk-on the last few times I visited. In contrast, Dominator and Volcano never seem to have that problem. Since MF doesn't seem to have that issue either, I can only conclude it is due to the extreme forces, not the size intimidation.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 7/20/13 11:18:09 PM
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/4312231

Article I saw posted on FB - this is pretty scary and could have been SO much worse. That's what real heroes do and like Drachen said earlier I really hope they are acknowledged by the park.

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by essennjayy at 7/25/13 6:11:09 PM
It's funny to actually realize this. I've never known how much malfunction comes with an Intamin ride, yet it's always been right under our noses. A new Intamin comes along, and problems ensue. I'm surprised no one mentioned the California Screamin' crash, another Intamin accident. A car was stopped near the station and for some reason, another car came racing at it causing a 'fender-bender.' I wonder why the block-segments didn't stop the red car? Assuming the train that got hit was more or less at the docking station, why didn't the two previous block-segments that are in that section stop the car?

This might be false but I also remembered hearing that Disney installed their own brakes on the coaster, which in return resulted in Intamin not backing their name on the coaster anymore.

I have always enjoyed Intamin, but can't stand it's fanboy base. Maybe because I relate the fan's to TPR. They're great rides, but not always the best. I enjoy them as much as most other coasters and rides as well.

* This post was modified at 7/25/13 6:12:24 PM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by chitlins73 chitlins73 Profile at 7/25/13 7:04:04 PM
Most of my top ten coasters are Intamin. I don't know if I would be the enthusiast I am if not for the anticipation of what Intamin is gonna come up with next.Sad to hear there are mishaps with many intamin coasters but I still hope they continue to be cutting edge in the industry.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by antikythera antikythera Profile at 8/18/13 12:40:33 AM
My opinion still stands that Intamin has great engineers when it comes to originality but that great thinking also gets them in trouble.

Instead of doing the work to make sure their next wild ride will be reliable, they do little testing and then have some park prototype if for them.

All hell then breaks lose when it doesn't work right and the park ends up having to pay for it. No one else purchases that product and they move onto designing another wild ride.

That being said, I thought this listing I saw on their Wikipedia page would fit well here as it outlines all the accomplishments they have achieved over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intamin

Again, great thinkers, poor engineers IMHO.

* This post was modified at 8/18/13 12:42:39 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Speedster at 8/31/13 10:08:19 PM
Of my top 5 favorite coasters, 4 are Intamin. I love their intensity and design. However, I canceled a trip to King's Dominion because my favorite coaster Intimidator 305 was down for most of the summer. It's been disappointing to see I-305 out of commission for nearly two months now. I hope they can make sure this doesn't happen in the future. Hey - while it's down, why not get rid of that trim on the third hill and add some more track near the end of the ride?
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 8/31/13 11:15:03 PM
I think they need the trims on that ride mainly to reduce the wear and tear on the wheels. I'd rather have it on the 3rd hill than back on the 1st hill.
I get that I305 down is a disappointment, but it's not like the park is pointless without it. I still managed to have a good day with Dominator and Volcano as the big 1-2 coasters there in 2009 before I305 was built.
Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by jackrabbit jackrabbit Profile at 9/1/13 12:17:43 AM
I think there is too much discussion about the companies that are awarded the contract for roller coaster projects and not the actual designer, who is usually Werner Stengel.

Most parts of the project are contracted out to subcontractors. This is common in most industries.

Throwing out names like Intamin and B&M is only scratching the surface here making the discussion very superficial.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 9/1/13 11:43:55 AM
jackrabbit said:

I think there is too much discussion about the companies that are awarded the contract for roller coaster projects and not the actual designer, who is usually Werner Stengel.


Most parts of the project are contracted out to subcontractors. This is common in most industries.

Throwing out names like Intamin and B&M is only scratching the surface here making the discussion very superficial.

From most accounts, Stengel was not involved with Intamin's most recent troublesome coasters, I-305 and Skyrush. Intamin, like B&M apparently, has moved on from using Stengel's firm.

IntaRide, Intamin's U.S. office, did the design work for both I-305 and Skyrush. They are also responsible for designing chasis and wheel assemblies, and restraints. If Intamin sub-contracts any of that out, they are still responsible for approving the final product.

I wouldn't be so quick to excuse Intamin for the performance of their products.

* This post was modified at 9/1/13 11:47:15 AM *

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by John_Knotts John_Knotts Profile at 9/1/13 12:40:57 PM
Where are all of the Intamin coaster US announcements for 2014? Hell, where were they in 2013?

I'm sorry, but the writing is on the wall.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Schrecken Schrecken Profile at 9/1/13 2:20:07 PM
Actually there have been precious few steel coasters announced this year in general (especially if you don't count kiddie/family coasters, like at SFMM and Dollywood), and not many coasters overall. Next year doesn't look to provide much in the way for steel coaster fans, lack of Intamins or not.

Other types of rides and water park additions seem to be the theme for '14, so it looks to be an off-year for coaster building in general. Speaking of other rides, what company is doing the drop tower at SF Great Adventure? The press release didn't mention that (or at least I didn't see it if it did).

Actually, I just noticed this:
http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1320795#p1320795

No idea on the one at SFGrA though.

* This post was modified at 9/1/13 2:25:02 PM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 9/1/13 2:29:19 PM
Schrecken said:

Actually there have been precious few steel coasters announced this year in general (especially if you don't count kiddie/family coasters, like at SFMM and Dollywood), and not many coasters overall. Next year doesn't look to provide much in the way for steel coaster fans, lack of Intamins or not.


Other types of rides and water park additions seem to be the theme for '14, so it looks to be an off-year for coaster building in general. Speaking of other rides, what company is doing the drop tower at SF Great Adventure? The press release didn't mention that (or at least I didn't see it if it did).

Actually, I just noticed this:
http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1320795#p1320795

No idea on the one at SFGrA though.

Intamin

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 9/1/13 4:58:30 PM
GoYanks34 said:


Intamin

Jen

UH OH!!!! Guess Gradv didn't add an opening date in that announcement (to be on the safe side)

Paul

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 9/2/13 12:18:30 AM
John_Knotts said:

Where are all of the Intamin coaster US announcements for 2014? Hell, where were they in 2013?


I'm sorry, but the writing is on the wall.

Exactly. Too bad a certain loud-mouth Intamin fan can't see it...

I mean, will Intamin get back in the game at some point? Sure, I suppose so. But but it won't happen until they get their act together.

* This post was modified at 9/2/13 12:27:19 AM *

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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by jackrabbit jackrabbit Profile at 9/2/13 12:52:44 AM
Malfunction occurs all the time and there are always several factors at play. It always confuses me why manufacturer's names are thrown around so loosely on coaster boards. Usually, the only "insider" information enthusiasts have is the name of the manufacturer. The discussion is very superficial and little is know n about the park's involvement and input.
I am not a fan of a particular manufacturer, I am a fan of parks and their rides. I try to experience each ride individually taking into account their name, theme, and perceived experience.

When I see patient's total hip replacements fail, it's always interesting to see that patient wants to sue the device manufacturer. Usually the implant doesn't fail, it's the patient's bone that crumbles around the implant. Maybe the doctor should have given the patient a more realistic pro/con list to the surgery and explained the risks. Either way, we see a knee-jerk reaction that usually involves and under-educated victim.

In the case of I305 and Skyrush, I think we have a customer that requested an intense roller coaster, and the manufacturer delivered as prescribed, but the parks most likely didn't properly assess their population's intensity tolerance.

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by Geauga_Dog Geauga_Dog Profile at 9/2/13 1:03:51 AM
Don't forget that Intamin is doing Falcon's Fury at BGT, not just Zumanjaro.

B&M seems quiet for next year as well with Banshee being the only stateside installation and Germany's Heide Park adding a new wing coaster.

Of course Valleyfair, Hersheypark, Kings Dominion, CGA and Knott's haven't announced anything yet but I don't see anything major coming from them either.

G-Dog

* This post was modified at 9/2/13 1:05:41 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 9/2/13 1:11:07 AM
Geauga_Dog said:

Don't forget that Intamin is doing Falcon's Fury at BGT, not just Zumanjaro.

G-Dog

Right, but this thread was more about coasters. Intamin's drop towers, for the most part, are tried and true.

But again, most parks have some sort of drop tower, so that market is drying up for them as well.

You're right. 2014 looks to be a down year overall for new coasters. Looking at the parks who have yet to announce anything, I don't see too many spots for any more.

But having said that, it will make two straight years that Intamin did not open a new coaster in the U.S.

drachen
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Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by alpengeistno3 at 9/2/13 11:05:40 AM
jackrabbit said:

Malfunction occurs all the time and there are always several factors at play. It always confuses me why manufacturer's names are thrown around so loosely on coaster boards. Usually, the only "insider" information enthusiasts have is the name of the manufacturer. The discussion is very superficial and little is know n about the park's involvement and input.
I am not a fan of a particular manufacturer, I am a fan of parks and their rides. I try to experience each ride individually taking into account their name, theme, and perceived experience.

When I see patient's total hip replacements fail, it's always interesting to see that patient wants to sue the device manufacturer. Usually the implant doesn't fail, it's the patient's bone that crumbles around the implant. Maybe the doctor should have given the patient a more realistic pro/con list to the surgery and explained the risks. Either way, we see a knee-jerk reaction that usually involves and under-educated victim.

In the case of I305 and Skyrush, I think we have a customer that requested an intense roller coaster, and the manufacturer delivered as prescribed, but the parks most likely didn't properly assess their population's intensity tolerance.

This goes far beyond "malfunction". You need to reread some Intamin threads (I think most of their blunders are highlighted here, but if not, they are more than highlighted over the years.) I305 and Skyrush are not a case of being too intense for the rider. The manufacturer's equipment has failed to deliver an acceptable riding condition for the majority of the guests due to the design (in the case of Skyrush) and was flat out ripping itself apart (in the case of I305). Sure, both parks wanted intense rides, but they did not order a ride that will break axles or burn through wheels like firewood.

We can go down the line about Maverick, Perilous Plunge, the mega coaster trains, the Impulse structure, the drop towers, Shoot the Rapids (did I forget any?). All of these "routine malfunctions" were things that SHOULD not have happened and had they been engineered properly from the start, they WOULD not have happened.

Your doctor analogy is wrong. Intamin's mishaps are the equivalent of using a wooden hip, then realizing that a steel one would have worked better after the patient has died.

Paul

* This post was modified at 9/2/13 11:08:29 AM *

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 9/2/13 11:35:45 AM
alpengeistno3 said:

Your doctor analogy is wrong. Intamin's mishaps are the equivalent of using a wooden hip, then realizing that a steel one would have worked better after the patient has died.

Paul

LMAO! As a "doctor" I have to go with Paul's metaphor on this one. It's poor design not normal "wear and tear" that is the problem with the Intamin rides. Perhaps you can say "wear and tear" for the drop tower fiascoes since most of those involved cables that should have been inspected and replaced properly by the parks but the others not so much. You just don't see the same things happening with other manufacturers.

So if hip implants were made by both B&M and Intamin based on the mechanical and technical problems that have happened it would be malpractice to implant an Intamin hip. I think the FDA would have pulled them off the market anyway. ;-)

Jen

Re: The Beginning of Intamin's Demise in the U.S.? by drachen drachen Profile at 9/2/13 5:01:08 PM
I think jackrabbit has a valid point about wear and tear, in some respects.

I don't hold Intamin accountable for El Toro's motor going out, or the cable snapping on Xcelerator and MF. To me, that is wear and tear.

Even I-305's motor issue (I'm assuming it's a motor issue) could be considered wear and tear. But if I'm Kings Dominion, I'm not happy about having to replace a lift motor 3 years after opening.

The other issues, as Paul stated, are not wear and tear. They are examples of what we can only call engineering ineptitude. Poor designs on restraints, layouts, wheel assemblies, train designs, etc...

* This post was modified at 1/27/14 10:14:07 AM *

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