CP to allegedly add B&M Wing Rider in 2013

Welllllllllllllllll, that is certainly interesting. It seems like three CP fans hate the idea in the comment section. I don't blame them.

Taking out family rides / flat rides is never a good thing.

This would definitely would make me wanna go to the park, but that really sucks they have to take more rides out.

I'm not complaining, but I found it interesting that the article mentions the wing coasters at Gardaland and SFAm, but not Dolly's...

Mike

CP still has plenty of "family" coasters. Cedar Creek Mine Ride, Iron Dragon, Jr. Gemini, and maybe one of the "Streaks" more than satisfies the kid-friendly coaster environment, plus they have "Planet Snoopy" and a series of other kid-friendly rides. Even "Paddlewheel Excursion" was replaced by the "Dinosaurs Alive" display.

Remember, CP has a reputation as "the coaster capital of the world". The fact that they haven't built a new coaster in 6 years is pretty significant. Disaster Transport does little to draw crowds.

On pretty much any weekend, lines for the mega-coasters (MF, TTD, and especially Maverick from what I've seen) are typically upward of two HOURS. Rides like Raptor, Mantis, and Magnum can be 30-60 minutes. What does that tell you about WHY people want to go to Cedar Point? It's not for the Tilt-a-Whirl.

They NEED a new "big thrill" attraction to pull some of the crowds off of the other lines and retain their position as "Coaster King". Even if that means knocking down some of the older, less-hyped attractions. They're right on the edge of Lake Erie...eventually you run out of real-estate to expand into.

There's always going to be someone who complains about their favorite nostalgic ride being taken down. What can you do? :/

I can't imagine that CP/Engineers couldn't work the coaster around Space Spiral... rather I think the execs feel SS no longer serves a purpose. CP has always been pretty transparent in their installs. When they start "working on an area" - shifting rides or revitalizing nearby attractions - you can bet they are making way for a coaster. Hence I think that the initial thought of a coaster taking DT's spot has been in the works for sometime. Re-development of the area no doubt cast a speculative eye on the usefulness of SS... Thus last year CP got a version of Windseeker which, more or less, serves the same purpose as the Spiral in a much more modern/marketable way.

I am one of those old schoolers that rode DT prior to it being enclosed. I rode the year it opened as Avalanche run and distinctly recall being dissapointed with it. When Avalanche Run opened, people waited for hours in excruciatingly hot sun reflecting off the water (long before the park began covering queues and using fan misters.) The benefit of it being enclosed and turned into DT was that you no longer baked in the sun waiting for it. But enclosed or not, the ride never was a redeemable one. You wait(ed) eons for a coaster that never delivers - it's just eh. Finally, I never thought of it as a "family" coaster - it wasn't built to be a "family attraction." When it opened, it was promoted as a big-bad new coaster - so imagine the dissapointment it held. I always considered it a rare mis-step by CP that originally predicted it to be more thrilling than it turned out. Heck, Falfas was embarassed of the ride from the start.

As for WildCat - seems to me that removal was not pre-meditated. I would suspect it simply reached the end of it's maintenance life and the cost of maintaining overrode it's validity as an attraction. Wildcat was not marketable, the new nightime show is. Both are geared to families - so I dont think the park sees the loss of Wildcat as a loss to the family attractions - rather a trade off. In addition, Wildcat is easily replacable. It wouldn't surprise me to see CP install a small mouse-type ride to up the coaster ante - I don't expect it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Ultimately, a ride or attraction must be markatable, viable, and crowd-drawing. Parks must survey if the turnstyles "turns" warrant a ride's upkeep and real-estate value. DT, SS and WC obviously do not meet those requirements.

I would be sorry to see the Space Spiral go and don't entirely understand the logic, but I could care less about Disaster Transport.

The argument of loosing a family ride is valid. Disaster Transport has a 46 inch height requirement and the Wing Rider would be 54 inches.

I love how the comments in the article go on about "Record Breaking". Just because a ride may have a unique element doesn't make it record breaking.

I'd have to check my pulse if CP DIDN'T market a new attraction as record breaking. ;-)

Admit it Eric... you have always wanted to climb up the insides of Space Spiral... you're just dissapointed you can't now ;-)

* This post was modified at 5/30/12 3:09:08 PM *

No it's not that. It's the fact that it is the identical model that operated at the defunct Marineland Park (Rancho Palos Verdes, CA), which was my childhood home. I could watch that thing go up and down all day long from my backyard.

-Eric

I remember the story... :-)

I also recall when I heard it - at Cedar Point.

"Memories, like the corners of my mind.... murky lake Erie water memories..."

I honestly would rather see a B&M dive machine, or a S&S 4D coaster at CP than a B&M Wing Rider. To me, the things that Wing Riders have going for them are the unobstructed views throughout their seating, and best case scenario, a X-Flight-like keyhole twist through a structure (possibly maybe even a keyhole tunnel in the future which would be impressive); That's it, other than that, they basically SEEM like Dominator, or Kraken with a wide wingspan and the normal inversions etc. Does anyone who has ridden a WR currently have it in their top ten?

D-Lo (ridden both US WR's) said that he's been on around 200 coasters, and X-Flight, and Wild Eagle are in his top 30 range; Okay rankings, but not mind blowing by no means. Whenever I get to ride any WR, yall know how I roll, I'm gonna tell it like it is with no sugarcoating and no punches pulled; If they are great, than I'll say they are; If they lack unique qualities, then I'll call them out.

I'm really scared that this rumored CP WR is gonna be an open air coaster, with a slight speed WR record, and no surprises. I hope that's not the case. It's beyond me as to why we aren't seeing any more Dive Machines, or 4D's built in these mega parks; It's like their are finding excuses not to build them, ie Leviathan.

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 6:35:51 AM *

I'm in total agreement about the Dive Machine.

It sounds like Cedar Point is going to pull a "Six Flags" and build it over the parking lot! I'm sorry, but I expect more from the new top brass.

JUST SAY NO TO PARKING LOT COASTERS

Rather than to just build it over the parking lot, why not annex those spaces for the park and do some landscaping on it? In addition to make up for the loss of parking space, why not build a 3 story parking structure to allow for more space for the park to expand in the future.

Eric_Gieszl said:

I'm in total agreement about the Dive Machine.

It sounds like Cedar Point is going to pull a "Six Flags" and build it over the parking lot! I'm sorry, but I expect more from the new top brass.

JUST SAY NO TO PARKING LOT COASTERS

I can almost guarantee that this will not be a SFDK Medusa parking lot coaster... CP will certainly develop the area around and under this ride. But from a terrain standpoint, Cedar Point is pretty much flat all over.

I'm all for this attraction. Sure DT is a bit of a loss in some circles, but as was mentioned earlier, there are several other family attractions and coasters at Cedar Point.

I would love to see a dive machine, but these wing riders are the flavor of the day in the industry, and this fits with CP's M.O. They come in about two years after a ride is introduced and build the biggest and sometimes best of that ride to date.

As for all of the "coaster crown" arguments, I don't know if Cedar Point cares anymore.

They are at 16 now, with the loss of Wild Cat. Next year, they will still be at 16 with the removal of DT.

Meanwhile, SFMM currently has 17, and will be adding number 18 next year. As it stands, CP will be two behind in 12 months. CP would need to add three coasters next year to tie Magic Mountain.

Anyway, as good as Maverick looks, I haven't been to Cedar Point since Dragster opened. I've been waiting for another new coaster to come in before I made my next trip. I'm excited to go back next year.

After a while, it becomes quality over quantity. The last three major coasters at CP have been Millenium Force, TTD, and Maverick. I would rather have those three than 20 Disaster Transports

Cedar Point is ripping out Disaster Transport, eh? Well, I guess we know what Dorney Park will be getting in 2013! LOL

All kidding aside, I actually liked Disaster Transport. I've always had a thing for indoor coasters, good ones and so-called bad ones.

I am surprised that they didn't plan the wing coaster to wrap around the Space Spiral as a cool element. Coasters are great of course, but I do feel that once a park becomes nothing but coasters, it becomes less interesting a place to visit. Not saying this has happened to Cedar Point (yet), but it certainly is where Magic Mountain is at.

I am sad to see DT and SS go, and also am disappointed about the whole parking lot situation (if they really don't do something like landscaping or whatever), but that being said, I am excited for the new coaster. Hope it's all worth it.

looper77 said:

Cedar Point is ripping out Disaster Transport, eh? Well, I guess we know what Dorney Park will be getting in 2013! LOL

Like button...

Wow, what if that really happens?

looper77 said:

Cedar Point is ripping out Disaster Transport, eh? Well, I guess we know what Dorney Park will be getting in 2013! LOL

LMAO! Good one!

I only went on DT once and it was not air conditioned inside and I was not impressed. And what the hell is the Space Spiral? Don't believe I ever rode it or knew of its existence in all the times I've been there. Just looked it up - I NEVER knew they had a lookout! And apparently I'll never ride it either. Oh well. Probably could've gotten some nice pics.

I agree with the Dive coaster sentiment - LOVE them!!

Jen

Glad they went with this over a boring dive coaster.

That area of the park was really lacking, great addition if this is all true!! Congrats CP!

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 1:18:45 AM *

drachen said:

As for all of the "coaster crown" arguments, I don't know if Cedar Point cares anymore.

They are at 16 now, with the loss of Wild Cat. Next year, they will still be at 16 with the removal of DT.

Meanwhile, SFMM currently has 17, and will be adding number 18 next year. As it stands, CP will be two behind in 12 months. CP would need to add three coasters next year to tie Magic Mountain.

If The Point doesnt care about the crown, then they should stop referring to themselves as the Coaster Capital of the World...

Just saying.

Joe
Great_Ump

NotSo said:

Glad they went with this over a boring dive coaster.

The two dive coasters I have been on were FAR from boring, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

And now, off to ride some "boring" 306 foot tall B&M coaster... ;)

I have mixed feelings about this. First off, I really don't have a problem with parking lot coasters. That kind of thing really doesn't bother me.
I'm not a fan of Disaster Transport, but I really don't want to see it go. These type of coasters are disappearing, when there's not many left to begin with.
I find it hard to believe they can't design a coaster around the space needle.
My biggest complaint is that the new coaster will be a wing rider. Nothing against wing riders, in fact I'm headed from PA to Gurnee IL to ride one next week. If you look at Cedar Points coasters like Magnum, Millennium Force, Top Thrill Dragster, and Maverick. All these coasters were very innovative and unique at the time they were built. Other than Magnum, there still isn't many coasters like the ones I mentioned.
Raptor, Mantis, and Wicked Twister are models that are common in other parks. I believe Raptor is one of the better inverts I've been on, but it no longer has that unique factor. These coasters are still fun, but they have lost the wow factor, because there are so many like them.
Now we are in the wing rider era. There are already 2 in the US and this is the type of coaster that most parks are going to install in the next 5 years. Ten years from now, this new coaster will fall into the same category as Raptor, Mantis, and Wicked Twister. I was just hoping for something more innovative and unique. A one of a kind type coaster. I think that's why I like Maverick so much. There's not a sister. At least Cedar Point didn't build a flying coaster when they became popular. If they install a wing rider, I'm sure it will be an awesome ride and I'll go and ride it next year. I just had higher expectations for a park that seems to always push the envelope when it comes to new coaster designs.

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 5:57:26 AM *

^^^I agree with just about everything that you said Frontrow. You mentioned about not caring if a coaster is in a parking lot or not, I tend to agree as long as the new coaster is something unique. The thing with something like a 4D coaster, you dont have to dress it up with dense foliage, tunnels etc, they sell themselves.

Someone speak up if they'll turn down a new 4D coaster in the parking lot? *crickets*

Meanwhile in China....*sigh*

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ2hH4HllrE

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 7:01:21 AM *

Regarding Maverick, I also strongly agree...there's really nothing like it anywhere. A lot of coasters are starting to incorporate "stengel-dives" and other such effects, though. And I've seen other coasters using some of the elements of Maverick. (For example, Fahrenheit uses a past-90 first drop) It's only a matter of time until terrain-hugging twisty-coasters start catching on in other parks. I think Intamin may have played more with the concept, but I'm pretty sure the reliability issues with the LSMs probably have them shying away from it. It's funny to see, though, that in a park with the coasters of CP, it's Maverick that typically has the longest line...and not just because of its reliability issues.

I dunno about the "4d" concept...cars that spin, etc. Once you start messing with the rider's orientation, you start getting dangerously close to a "zipper" effect. Coasters are meant to be a journey, not just a dizzification. It almost feels like a waste to make it go around the track if you don't know which way is up to begin with.

Roller coasters are an art-form like any other, though. And the "golden age" of that art as it stands is probably 1990-2010.

During that time, we saw the evolution of steel as a coaster-medium. Before that, coasters were limited by materials (wood) as to what they could do. In those 20 years, we saw the introduction of the "hypercoaster", the evolution of track features (corkscrews, inversions, etc), the evolution of coaster cars, and the evolution of coaster launch mechanisms.

Height, speed, "g"s, airtime, inversions...they've all been virtually pushed to their limits. Where is the "new frontier"?

I see the "4D" movement as an attempt to do "something new", but I question its ability to catch on. It's innovation for its own sake, rather than to actually enhance the art...a desire to say, "We have something no one else has" without a true demand for that "something".

I like comparing it to music. Certain genres of music are "dead". Not many people are out there "changing the game" at this point, because if the game "changes" any more, it will become something else. 4D to me is pushing roller coasters into "flat thrill" domain.

looper77 said:

Cedar Point is ripping out Disaster Transport, eh? Well, I guess we know what Dorney Park will be getting in 2013! LOL

I know you're kidding, but wouldn't it be hilarious if Dorney beat Knoebels to the punch with a bobsled-style coaster?

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 2:31:41 PM *

Shaggy said:

I'd have to check my pulse if CP DIDN'T market a new attraction as record breaking. ;-)

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe they claimed any records with Maverick.

Regarding Wingcoaster 2013, I full expect it to be Raptor v.2. They waited for the most recent B&M prototype to play itself out in 2-3 parks with smaller layouts prior to having their own 170 ft tall 4,000 ft long, 3 36 train version installed.

If nothing else, this will completely balance the running of the bulls in the morning. Being the big new kid on the block, could it be possible that rides like MF, TTD, and Maverick might be close to walk on for the first 30-60 minutes of most days? Unthinkable in recent years. Raptor in and of itself still draws a heavy opening crowd- 19 years later.

This is how I break it down concerning CP's choice of new coaster in 2013 (which alot of the layout will be in the parking lot). All will be an instant hit with the GP, but IMO one of these things are not like the others concerning uniqueness to the park, you decide.

4D Coaster- A zipper ride within a coaster. It will bring in hardcore thrillseekers from near and far. Besides SFMM out on the Left Coast, there are no coaster types like this in the US. It is the most extreme, and innovative coaster choice outta the three coaster choices. It's a lil' too queasy for many moderate-thrill riders.

Dive Machine- Breathtaking momentum-filled vertical drops. A very well rounded choice IMO. Immelmanns with airtime, and who knows, maybe B&M can introduce Dive loops on this baby. It's a capacity eater. A crowd soaking watersplash might prove tough to implement with the parking lot issue. CP would want to break the dive machine record, so I would not expect a Griffon/SheiKra facsimile.

Wing Rider- Unobstructed seating over a parking lot. Any kinda keyhole tower/tunnel would virtually be impossible with the parking lot situation. Wild Eagle has the terrain, and Smoky Mtn vista; X-Flight has the keyhole twist, headchopper supports, and hangar tunnel; What would CP's WR have? It would be like Dominator with a wingspan over a parking lot.

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 3:02:54 PM *

sparky said:

Shaggy said:

I'd have to check my pulse if CP DIDN'T market a new attraction as record breaking. ;-)

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe they claimed any records with Maverick.

Regarding Wingcoaster 2013, I full expect it to be Raptor v.2. They waited for the most recent B&M prototype to play itself out in 2-3 parks with smaller layouts prior to having their own 170 ft tall 4,000 ft long, 3 36 train version installed.

If nothing else, this will completely balance the running of the bulls in the morning. Being the big new kid on the block, could it be possible that rides like MF, TTD, and Maverick might be close to walk on for the first 30-60 minutes of most days? Unthinkable in recent years. Raptor in and of itself still draws a heavy opening crowd- 19 years later.

MF, TTD, and Maverick will never be "walk-on" on a high-volume park day. If the new coaster lives up to the hype, then it will draw SOME of the traffic away from the "big three", but the "bulls" will still head to those coasters by default. Expect maybe 1-hour waits instead of 2-hour waits...which is a good thing. But it'll take at least two more "big-name" coasters to really draw down the lines from those three.

Your best bet for Cedar Point is to stay at one of the hotels that offers "early admission" if you absolutely MUST get a quick early ride in. Raptor is walk-on for early admission...TTD and MF are easily tolerable waits. Maverick...well, it's usually broken down until about 12:30 in the afternoon. :/ But that creates unique opportunities if you can jump back into line RIGHT when it opens back up.

FWIW, I have been to CP when just about ALL of the major coasters have been 15 minutes or less delays...in fact, some friends of mine were able to do 5 back-to-back runs on Top Thrill in about 15 minutes. I won't post it on a public forum because if "word gets out", the crowds will find their ways there, but here's a hint: What is the most important thing in the world to high-schoolers in the midwest US?

It's hard to really judge what the new ride will do to crowd flow, but I think it is safe to say the front of the park will be busier than it has been throughout the afternoon/evening hours. This will probably lead to longer wait times for Raptor later in the day than its traditional 4PM 5-10 minute waits.

I recall the year MF opened. That year saw a drastic drop-off in wait times for Magnum (which up through 1999 was second only to Raptor and probably tied with Mantis for highest in demand coaster on property). Ever since then, I am perfectly content riding Magnum and Gemini dozens of times while people pointlessly wait 90-120 minutes to be launched to 120 MPH while dodging cable shards for an 18 second ride experience.

I think Cedar Point actually faces some big challenges in the next decade or so. As was mentioned the park as marketed itself as the coaster capital of the world, and being that it's located in an economically depressed part of the country it seems that it's very important that it continues that style of promotion, and remains a destination park as opposed to a regional park. Clearly the park has gotten a little less attention in the coaster department during last few years as Cedar Fair has focused more on adding to it's other parks.

With that being said, I think this is a fantastic decision, even with the removal of DT and SS. One of their big challenges is the fact that while CP still is in the top 3 worldwide as far as number of coasters, bottom line is many of those coasters and other rides are outdated. At the same time the total cost of a new large steel coaster has risen dramatically over the past few years, adding more to their challenges.

I hope that CP continues to with projects like this one. This ride will be very marketable and very enjoyable, along with bringing life to a "dead" area of the park. Let's hope they make a similar decision in the future with that giant pile of firewood in the back of the park.

What surprises me most is after all these years we are starting to see old and sometimes classic attractions being retired in such a short period of time. I don't even remember the last time CP removed rides at the rate of what is going on right now (first Wildcat, now Space Spiral and Disaster Transport). Whenever a new ride was going to be built they just moved it to another area if it was feasible to do so (i.e. Super Himalaya is in its third location in the park).

As for the wing coaster, it will defintely be a new experience in the park. While a Dive Machine would have been a good addition, Dragster already has a large vertical drop and Maverick goes just beyond vertical. The only aspect of the early description that somewhat bothers me is having the ride go over the main entrance. Trying to visualize what that might be like I don't think it's going to look good aesthetically.

They wont build over a parking lot. They said they will change the entire front of the park including the parkin lot.

They have a ton of room in the park, they run marathons inside the park for crying out loud.
Space Spiral is going away because nobody rides it. Last week the girl on the mike was saying "please someone come ride Space Spiral..." Disaster Transport can go, that opens up a very big lot. They will make it look nice, this isnt SF.

* This post was modified at 5/31/12 9:14:45 PM *

^^^Read the top link again.

"The huge roller coaster will dominate the front gate and track will travel over a large parking area".

Cedar Fair's CEO Matt Ouimet, speaking about CF parks, and Cedar Point's new coaster in particular.

"We have several roller coasters that cover parking lots; Not necessarily ideal, but certainly acceptable given tight site constraints and the amount of land such attractions require".

The Cedar Point peninsula is not exactly a large land mass with acres of virgin forest, so to say that CP has "tons of room" is an exaggeration. It wouldn't make any sense to demo a large section of parking area, then build a new coaster that will increase attendance.

* This post was modified at 6/1/12 8:26:57 AM *

Phil brought up a good point concerning the lack of attraction flexibility at CP, how bout eventually building an Universal-esque three-story parking garage in the future?

Another option, is WAY more far-fetched; Dubai in the United Arab Emirates is well known for it's artificial land by dredging up the bottom of the sea to make land for housing, office buildings etc, so it's not impossible, not to say that it's cheap. Hey, let us dreamers dream! :)

NPN put out a map of the potential wing rider footprint area highlighting Disaster Transport, and parking area in CP; Sorry about the tiny size, but you get the idea.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nZ6hnKSOBG4/T8aFqZSnQtI/AAAAAAAARiE/Bx1v2vnCzts/s400/CedarPoint2013Map.jpg

* This post was modified at 6/1/12 7:45:26 PM *

sparky said:

Ever since then, I am perfectly content riding Magnum and Gemini dozens of times while people pointlessly wait 90-120 minutes to be launched to 120 MPH while dodging cable shards for an 18 second ride experience.

I love you... 'nuff said...

Joe
Great_Ump

Overbanked said:

Phil brought up a good point concerning the lack of attraction flexibility at CP, how bout eventually building an Universal-esque three-story parking garage in the future?

Another option, is WAY more far-fetched; Dubai in the United Arab Emirates is well known for it's artificial land by dredging up the bottom of the sea to make land for housing, office buildings etc, so it's not impossible, not to say that it's cheap. Hey, let us dreamers dream! :)

NPN put out a map of the potential wing rider footprint area overlapping Disaster Transport, and parking area in CP; Sorry about the tiny size, but you get the idea.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nZ6hnKSOBG4/T8aFqZSnQtI/AAAAAAAARiE/Bx1v2vnCzts/s400/CedarPoint2013Map.jpg

Thank you! That was the 2nd time I made that type of suggestion and was thinking it was going to be ignored again. Is the ground strong enough to handle at least a 3 story parking structure? My 'idea' would be to have 2 buildings on each side while leaving the middle for a tram and for car traffic. The room freed up by the garages should allow CP to expand 'south' and then they won't need to scrap rides or cram everything into certain areas.

I like that idea about the dredging, that would be another great idea to expand the land around the park. And to be on the safe side, they can put flat rides there and leave the coasters on the main land.

Overbanked said:

Phil brought up a good point concerning the lack of attraction flexibility at CP, how bout eventually building an Universal-esque three-story parking garage in the future?

Another option, is WAY more far-fetched; Dubai in the United Arab Emirates is well known for it's artificial land by dredging up the bottom of the sea to make land for housing, office buildings etc, so it's not impossible, not to say that it's cheap. Hey, let us dreamers dream! :)

NPN put out a map of the potential wing rider footprint area overlapping Disaster Transport, and parking area in CP; Sorry about the tiny size, but you get the idea.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nZ6hnKSOBG4/T8aFqZSnQtI/AAAAAAAARiE/Bx1v2vnCzts/s400/CedarPoint2013Map.jpg

The queuing line at the back half of MF always looked like a parking lot...for people. :p

I guess how well a coaster would work over a parking lot like that would depend a lot on how it's built. If it's "high-flying" enough, you won't even notice the lot. What'd be cooler, though, is if they could somehow take it out over the lake. :)

heh, wouldn't it be funny if they double decked the waiting line for MF or TDD? You can really free up some more space that way and maybe have it all enclosed and air conditioned :)