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Airtime + Inversions: How?

Link Link Profile

Posted:
12/31/11 at
10:36:27 AM

Typically, most looping roller coasters feature a dizzying array of inversions, but don't really provide the airtime-producing bumps of your typical out-and-back. There are exceptions to this, of course, but sadly, not the common convention.

Can you really say, however, that you've seen a coaster that combined the thrills of a B&M hyper like Diamondback or Apollo's Chariot with a B&M looper like Dominator or Kumba? Or an Intamin Bizarro with an Intamin Colossus/10-Inversion? (There are none that I'm immediately aware of, at least.)

My first question to you is: Is it even possible/practical to have a coaster like Voyage meet an Arrow looper like Viper at SFMM?

That said, if you had an unlimited budget to work with, how would YOU design a coaster that combined killer airtime moments with intense inversions? Not in a cheap "one trick pony" way, either; i.e., a single top hat or airtime hill among a spagetti of twists like Storm Runner or Maverick.

What would the elements be and in what order? How would you handle the pacing? How tall or fast would it have to be? (Along with other vital statistics.)

I'm very curious to see how members here might answer this challenge.

* This Post Has Been Modified *

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by CoasterFanatic CoasterFanatic Profile at 12/31/11 6:35:08 PM

Fahrenheit.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 12/31/11 6:58:28 PM

> Fahrenheit.
>

If this is honestly your answer, then could you at least be so kind as to enlighten me as to what it is about the layout, pacing, etc., of Fahrenheit that makes it qualify as a "Voyage meets Arrow looper" experience?

Or is it too much for me to ask for someone to contribute meaningfully to my original post?

Thanks.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by mugen828 mugen828 Profile at 12/31/11 7:06:09 PM

I would love a coaster like Nitro or Appollo's chariot to have loops and dives. That would be awesome.

- mugen828

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by gvlaker27 gvlaker27 Profile at 12/31/11 8:12:09 PM

100% hypothetical here, I would never want to change anything about Magnum XL, BUT, imagine adding B&M sized loops and very high barrel rolls amongst the massive airtime hills. Make it almost like a traditional hyper, except with oversized inversions. I would keep it out and back, no back tracking or twisting around. I want it original out and back layout. If possible, put it in the woods.

This got me thinking a bit (I'll do my best to avoid highjacking a post)...
It seems like the earlier Shwarzkopf loopers are the closest coasters to actually answering this 'airtime+inversion' equation. I look at a coaster like Revolution or Mindbender and see a terrain-like coaster that's simply had a couple loops added to it. Then the 'who can add a ridiculous number of inversions' wars began and it seemed like this cancelled out any terrain elements or potentially sprawled out layouts with more potential for airtime. It seems like as soon as the inversion wars began, most loopers were subjected to 'parking lot' treatment. Not many are 'out there' in the woods.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 12/31/11 8:44:09 PM

> 100% hypothetical here, I would never want to change
> anything about Magnum XL, BUT, imagine adding B&M sized
> loops and very high barrel rolls amongst the massive
> airtime hills. Make it almost like a traditional hyper,
> except with oversized inversions. I would keep it out and
> back, no back tracking or twisting around. I want it
> original out and back layout. If possible, put it in the
> woods.

> This got me thinking a bit (I'll do my best to avoid
> highjacking a post)...
> It seems like the earlier Shwarzkopf loopers are the
> closest coasters to actually answering this
> 'airtime+inversion' equation. I look at a coaster like
> Revolution or Mindbender and see a terrain-like coaster
> that's simply had a couple loops added to it. Then the 'who
> can add a ridiculous number of inversions' wars began and
> it seemed like this cancelled out any terrain elements or
> potentially sprawled out layouts with more potential for
> airtime. It seems like as soon as the inversion wars began,
> most loopers were subjected to 'parking lot' treatment. Not
> many are 'out there' in the woods.

Thank you! This is exactly the kind of creative answer I was looking for.

I appreciate you putting into perspective the "inversion wars". I had always been perplexed at how coasters are either airtime machines or inversion machines, but rarely both in an epic Magnum XL kind of way.

Your description exemplifies my thinking.

How would you make the layout? What elements and in what order? Size, speed, specs, etc. Give it some thought, and if you come up with anything, please share.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by alpengeistno3 at 12/31/11 8:55:45 PM

One thing that I think is important to note is that B&M is probably the only steel coaster designer who has not mixed restraint designs with ride layouts. All their looping coasters have OTSR's, all the non looping ones have lapbars. Until B&M decides to build a looper with lapbars, or unfortunately, a hyper with OTSR's, it is unlikely we will see a hybrid from them.

As for other designers, the biggest enemy of looping designs is speed. Arrow found out the hard way that the faster coasters get, the harder it is to throw riders through inversions. And the main highlight of steel hyper coasters are speed. So a hybrid is going to most likely sacrifice inversions or sacrifice speed, making it most likely inferior to what we have now. Cheetah Hunt seems to be a good example of that. It could have been a hyper type layout, but that seemed to be scratched in order to stick that one inversion in there.

Paul

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 12/31/11 9:34:03 PM

> One thing that I think is important to note is that B&M is
> probably the only steel coaster designer who has not mixed
> restraint designs with ride layouts. All their looping
> coasters have OTSR's, all the non looping ones have
> lapbars. Until B&M decides to build a looper with lapbars,
> or unfortunately, a hyper with OTSR's, it is unlikely we
> will see a hybrid from them.

> As for other designers, the biggest enemy of looping
> designs is speed. Arrow found out the hard way that the
> faster coasters get, the harder it is to throw riders
> through inversions. And the main highlight of steel hyper
> coasters are speed. So a hybrid is going to most likely
> sacrifice inversions or sacrifice speed, making it most
> likely inferior to what we have now. Cheetah Hunt seems to
> be a good example of that. It could have been a hyper type
> layout, but that seemed to be scratched in order to stick
> that one inversion in there.

> Paul

Considering the fact that Viper at SFMM runs at 70 mph, and Magnum XL-200 runs at 71 mph, I would have to say that I would disagree. Both are from the same manufacturer. Both have similar height of lift and top speed.

I will agree about the restraints, however. But there are companies like Maurer Söhne have a lap restraint that allows for intense looping.

The real question is how the layout would be paced, and which elements would come in which order.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by frontrow frontrow Profile at 12/31/11 10:05:53 PM

First I would like to state that I really like Maverick because it has a little bit of everything in it: Great first drop, air time hill, inversions, and a launch. I was a fan of the old Steel Phantom because the first part was hypercoaster and the second part was a looping coaster.
Now if I were to design the perfect coaster: It would have a 250 ft. or greater first drop, followed by 2 floating air time hills in an out and back type layout. Instead of a turn around with a helix or a turn, the coaster would then have a series of inversions. 4 would be the minimum, with a vertical loop, a zero g roll, a bat wing, and something original. The return trip would have a series of air time hills. Imagine Nitro with inversions were the helix is.
The problem with my dream coaster is what park will request this? Parks want to build coasters that attract the GP, not enthusiasts like us. Who would be willing to think outside the box, spend the money, and give up the space? It would be the perfect coaster. Heck, put a launch somewhere in it so Jen will love it also. If only we were coaster designers.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by alpengeistno3 at 12/31/11 10:56:16 PM

> One thing that I think is important to note is that B&M is
> probably the only steel coaster designer who has not mixed
> restraint designs with ride layouts. All their looping
> coasters have OTSR's, all the non looping ones have
> lapbars. Until B&M decides to build a looper with lapbars,
> or unfortunately, a hyper with OTSR's, it is unlikely we
> will see a hybrid from them.

> As for other designers, the biggest enemy of looping
> designs is speed. Arrow found out the hard way that the
> faster coasters get, the harder it is to throw riders
> through inversions. And the main highlight of steel hyper
> coasters are speed. So a hybrid is going to most likely
> sacrifice inversions or sacrifice speed, making it most
> likely inferior to what we have now. Cheetah Hunt seems to
> be a good example of that. It could have been a hyper type
> layout, but that seemed to be scratched in order to stick
> that one inversion in there.

> Paul

> Considering the fact that Viper at SFMM runs at 70 mph, and
> Magnum XL-200 runs at 71 mph, I would have to say that I
> would disagree. Both are from the same manufacturer. Both
> have similar height of lift and top speed.

Viper is a poor example as there are a rack of trim brakes immediately after the 1st vertical loop. Any of the initial speed that would put it in the class with Magnum is lost immediately (if not from the trims, from the block brake that comes before the majority of the twisting inversions that require a slower speed.)

> I will agree about the restraints, however. But there are
> companies like Maurer Söhne have a lap restraint that
> allows for intense looping.

True, but I think you make my point. Once inversions are involved, even coasters with lap bars are slower (Rip Ride Rockit is a more than appropriate example of that, even if it doesn't have any actual upside down inversions.)

> The real question is how the layout would be paced, and
> which elements would come in which order.

I could throw something out there, but real world scenarios involved, the trend today calls for glass smooth rides, looping or non-looping. Mixing the two will either result in a ride that is two parts, 1/2 looping, half hyper with either a block brake or a launch in the middle. Neither half really being very fulfilling as most parks with the money to build such a ride don't have the space to dedicate to making the project "Voyage-like." The alternative is to have an airtime hill with a rack of trim brakes before the loops (unless they are all vertical or diving loops ala the dive coasters, in which case would not result in a wide variety of inversions.

Someone brought up Fahrenheit, which is probably the closest modern real life example of a multi looper with airtime elements. Older coasters like Mindbender and even Shockwave at KD have elements of being hybrid, but the looping aspect is terribly lacking in variety due to the age of those rides.

Paul

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 12/31/11 11:33:01 PM

> Viper is a poor example as there are a rack of trim brakes
> immediately after the 1st vertical loop. Any of the initial
> speed that would put it in the class with Magnum is lost
> immediately (if not from the trims, from the block brake
> that comes before the majority of the twisting inversions
> that require a slower speed.)

Excellent point.

> True, but I think you make my point. Once inversions are
> involved, even coasters with lap bars are slower (Rip Ride
> Rockit is a more than appropriate example of that, even if
> it doesn't have any actual upside down inversions.)

...and...

> Someone brought up Fahrenheit, which is probably the
> closest modern real life example of a multi looper with
> airtime elements. Older coasters like Mindbender and even
> Shockwave at KD have elements of being hybrid, but the
> looping aspect is terribly lacking in variety due to the
> age of those rides.

It seems that Intamin is leading in this space, seeing as they are the progenitors of Maverick, Fahrenheit, and the upcoming Cheetah Hunt. I would say that Maurer Söhne has at least some potential in this space with their layouts and the X-Seat, but not so nearly as strong examples as the Intamins thus far--at least not to my knowledge.

> but real world scenarios
> involved, the trend today calls for glass smooth rides,
> looping or non-looping. Mixing the two will either result
> in a ride that is two parts, 1/2 looping, half hyper with
> either a block brake or a launch in the middle. Neither
> half really being very fulfilling as most parks with the
> money to build such a ride don't have the space to dedicate
> to making the project "Voyage-like." The
> alternative is to have an airtime hill with a rack of trim
> brakes before the loops (unless they are all vertical or
> diving loops ala the dive coasters, in which case would not
> result in a wide variety of inversions.

There is always that assumption that by mixing two styles of something that none of the parts are as good as if they stood on their own.

But that's not exactly true for Voyage, for example. It has an excellent traditional outbound run, but then goes all twisty from the outbound leg all the way back to the station, and yet still provides significant airtime moments throughout.

I am not convinced that the coaster would have to change/switch styles after a mid-course or block brake, but I would agree that it would be the most obviously logical way of hybridizing an airtime hyper with a multi-looper. I totally agree that to be a successful hybrid, the transitions would have to be smooth. Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head of why we don't see more of these, but I still can't help but thinking that there should be a perfectly plausible way of pulling this off.

Of course, we all know as enthusiasts that the parks will always appeal to the masses. Still, I'm curious to see if anyone has any ideas of how they might approach this in such a way that the layout and pacing were manic yet still remain smooth throughout each transition.

> I could throw something out there,

Please do! I am very curious how any of you here would handle the layout and pacing of such a ride.

Thank you for your feedback!

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 1/1/12 3:43:57 AM

I'm curious to know which inversions on Fahrenheit gave good airtime? Fahrenheit seems like a rare coaster that has good air within most of it's inversions. Just looking at the POV, I don't see much of any 'airy hills' section that's accustomed with hypers; Two airhills at best.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by CoasterFanatic CoasterFanatic Profile at 1/1/12 7:19:38 AM

Arrows biggest problem with speed was they tried to put a bigger fast coaster and go through the exact same sized loops as the smaller ones. In B&M's case the faster the speed, the bigger the inversion.

And for the record. Farenhight has speed, a twisty layout, Airtime hills and many inversions. I found it quite cool for a steel coaster.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Tomes at 1/1/12 7:40:05 AM

Guys,

I just want to clarify that speed is not the biggest enemy of this type of hypothetical coaster... The only enemy is money$$$$

I know everyone is basing their opinions on existing coasters, but that's irrelevant. What hasn't been built doesn't mean it can't be built. But, just to remind everyone that Superman Krypton Coaster reaches 70mph, Shikra and Griffon are loopers and they are <200ft with 70-71mph. Also the 4D coasters are all upwards of 200ft, with velocities greater than 70 (Eejanaika is alomst 80mph) and the one opening next year in China will be the highest looping coaster in the world.

It's just a matter of money. The higher the drops are, the higher the velocity is, the higher you have to make inversions in order to not kill the riders. That's it. Superman Krypton Coaster which reaches 70mph now has the tallest vertical loop. If X2 had a vertical loop right after its first drop, guess what? It would have to be the world's tallest loop. It's very simple.

A coaster like this wouldn't even have to even have two saparate parts. You could have a Millennium Force drop followed by a massive airtime hill and then an immelman followed by a 0-g roll, and then another airtime hill, a steep overbanked curve, into another airtime hill with the latter part of the hill barrell rolling downwards (yes you could do that) into an inclined loop that exists into another shorter airtime hill like on Maverick or Fahrenheit, followed by another one, and then two consecutive corkscrews, an ascending helix and a few low-to-the-ground "twisties" like on maverick or I305, before approaching the breaks and squeezing another airtime hill on the way there.

Is this roller coaster possible? Yep. Would it be AMAZING? I think so. Would it have OTSR? Probably.. But so does I305 and it doesn't invert. Maybe it could have Lap Bars instead, but that would have to be determined. The most pertinent questions are: 1. How much room would a roller coaster like this take, and what park has room and is willing to give it up for ONE ride? 2. How much would this roller coaster cost to build, and would it return its investment by bringing significant additional amounts of visitors a year.

It's true that parks don't make decisions based on the "roller coaster enthusiasts"'s opinions, but the general crowd likes the same stuff we like. We just know more about it and follow it more closely. Amusement parks are businesses, they want to make money. They don't care. Of course the better product you have, the more customers you will get, so they do care, and I'm sure many of the employees who are involved in ride design are enthusiastic about the rides too, so they want to make fun rides, but that's mainly what it comes down to.

Fahrenheit is fun, but it's very short and only has 1 airtime hill. Maverick is AWESOME, has 2 airtime hills and 2 inversions. Griffon and Sheikra both have 2 awesome drops with nice air (even though they're not 'hills') but they have very few elements otherwise, because they are so expensive.

If I ever become a roller coaster designer, I'll push for stuff similar to the one I suggested :-)

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 1/1/12 9:10:56 AM

> Guys,

> I just want to clarify that speed is not the biggest enemy
> of this type of hypothetical coaster... The only enemy is
> money$$$$

> I know everyone is basing their opinions on existing
> coasters, but that's irrelevant. What hasn't been built
> doesn't mean it can't be built. But, just to remind
> everyone that Superman Krypton Coaster reaches 70mph,
> Shikra and Griffon are loopers and they are It's just a
> matter of money. The higher the drops are, the higher the
> velocity is, the higher you have to make inversions in
> order to not kill the riders. That's it. Superman Krypton
> Coaster which reaches 70mph now has the tallest vertical
> loop. If X2 had a vertical loop right after its first drop,
> guess what? It would have to be the world's tallest loop.
> It's very simple.

> A coaster like this wouldn't even have to even have two
> saparate parts. You could have a Millennium Force drop
> followed by a massive airtime hill and then an immelman
> followed by a 0-g roll, and then another airtime hill, a
> steep overbanked curve, into another airtime hill with the
> latter part of the hill barrell rolling downwards (yes you
> could do that) into an inclined loop that exists into
> another shorter airtime hill like on Maverick or
> Fahrenheit, followed by another one, and then two
> consecutive corkscrews, an ascending helix and a few
> low-to-the-ground "twisties" like on maverick or
> I305, before approaching the breaks and squeezing another
> airtime hill on the way there.

> Is this roller coaster possible? Yep. Would it be AMAZING?
> I think so. Would it have OTSR? Probably.. But so does I305
> and it doesn't invert. Maybe it could have Lap Bars
> instead, but that would have to be determined. The most
> pertinent questions are: 1. How much room would a roller
> coaster like this take, and what park has room and is
> willing to give it up for ONE ride? 2. How much would this
> roller coaster cost to build, and would it return its
> investment by bringing significant additional amounts of
> visitors a year.

> It's true that parks don't make decisions based on the
> "roller coaster enthusiasts"'s opinions, but the
> general crowd likes the same stuff we like. We just know
> more about it and follow it more closely. Amusement parks
> are businesses, they want to make money. They don't care.
> Of course the better product you have, the more customers
> you will get, so they do care, and I'm sure many of the
> employees who are involved in ride design are enthusiastic
> about the rides too, so they want to make fun rides, but
> that's mainly what it comes down to.

> Fahrenheit is fun, but it's very short and only has 1
> airtime hill. Maverick is AWESOME, has 2 airtime hills and
> 2 inversions. Griffon and Sheikra both have 2 awesome drops
> with nice air (even though they're not 'hills') but they
> have very few elements otherwise, because they are so
> expensive.

> If I ever become a roller coaster designer, I'll push for
> stuff similar to the one I suggested :-)

Very well thought-out! Thanks for your feedback!

I agree with your view of the economics involved, but mostly for the reasons of logistics and space, which is a very good point to consider.

You would think, however, in this new age of "coaster wars" that some park would go for the honor of having "the ultimate coaster experience"--not so much in size, but in sheer dynamics. We have the science, technology, and experience to build such a thing. But we spend those virtues more often than not pursing smaller, more compact, more affordable layouts with more twists and more unique inversions and elements--which isn't bad, mind you. There are exceptions like Cheetah Hunt, but that's because you can only build so high in Florida from what I've been told.

However, a coaster like you are suggesting would surely receive high accolades from both the general populace and enthusiasts alike.

And I absolutely love your idea of an airtime hill that drops into a barrel roll! If I had the money to invest, I would most certainly consider you to be on a panel of advisers. You would think that more parks would rally coaster enthusiasts like yourself for their opinions, but I'm sure there's some B.S. economic reason why they don't. *rolls eyes* It's a tiresome excuse.

Alas, I digress.

Great answer!

I'm giving a layout some thought but I'll wait for others to contribute first before sharing my own idea.

Cheers!

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? Photo Icon by Link Link Profile at 1/1/12 9:22:37 AM

@Tomes: Would your layout work as a floorless X-Car, courtesy of Maurer Söhne?

Also, has MS ever made a hyper/~200-footer before?

User Submitted Picture

YouTube Video: Maurer Söhne X-Coaster: X-Car

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by leroyk at 1/1/12 5:15:03 PM

Call me crazy, but I would love to see B&M or Intamin do a proper rendition of Kennywood's original but now reborn Steel Phantom(sniff, sniff). I do miss SP but it was a rough one. The great second drop with the 180 at the bottom was memorable. Then the dreaded brake at the top of the hill before the loop was as memory but in a cruel way.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Tomes at 1/1/12 7:28:35 PM

Link, I've watched this video before, as I was thinking of applying to MS when I when I was finishing up my Mechanical Engineering degree :-)

I definitely like what I do now, but a future career in roller coasters still sounds really nice.. I also have, and have had some great ideas that could become patents... Like, I thought of a 180º inverting drop about 10 years ago. I also always thought of the indoor in-the-dark "falling" track section at the end of a coaster. Man, I thought of that idea like 7 or 8 years ago. I have a little notebook from college with that stuff all drawn out. I still have a bunch of good ideas that I'm keeping with me just in case I ever do decide to pursue the career path :-)

But anyway that was very tangential to the original topic... Yeah, I'm sure they could use that type of train. It's all a matter of reliability and reputation (do we trust Maurer Söhne to build us a coaster bigger and more complicated than they ever have, and will it run smoothly, be open on time, and not break down for 3 weeks at a time?) combined with pricing bids (will B&M or Intamin AG be able to produce this ride for cheaper, finish the project faster, and give the riders almost the same experience more cost-effectively for us even though they are using OTSRs?)

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 1/1/12 7:37:17 PM

> Link, I've watched this video before, as I was thinking of
> applying to MS when I when I was finishing up my Mechanical
> Engineering degree :-)

> I definitely like what I do now, but a future career in
> roller coasters still sounds really nice.. I also have, and
> have had some great ideas that could become patents...
> Like, I thought of a 180º inverting drop about 10 years
> ago. I also always thought of the indoor in-the-dark
> "falling" track section at the end of a coaster.
> Man, I thought of that idea like 7 or 8 years ago. I have a
> little notebook from college with that stuff all drawn out.
> I still have a bunch of good ideas that I'm keeping with me
> just in case I ever do decide to pursue the career path :-)

I know this may sound strange, but I have had the desire to create new and innovative/interactive rides and attractions since childhood. I now manage several emerging technology companies, and hopefully, within the next few years, I will be able to cash-out my "sweat equity" perhaps well enough to make a meaningful investment in the amusement industry. So I totally understand where you're coming from!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

> But anyway that was very tangential to the original
> topic... Yeah, I'm sure they could use that type of train.
> It's all a matter of reliability and reputation (do we
> trust Maurer Söhne to build us a coaster bigger and more
> complicated than they ever have, and will it run smoothly,
> be open on time, and not break down for 3 weeks at a time?)
> combined with pricing bids (will B&M or Intamin AG be able
> to produce this ride for cheaper, finish the project
> faster, and give the riders almost the same experience more
> cost-effectively for us even though they are using OTSRs?)

One word, LICENSING. The real question is: Would MS be willing to license its X-Seat to the likes of B&M or Intamin? So imagine your layout being designed by B&M with B&M stock track and cars, but seats provided by license from MS.

I don't mind dreaming of big ideas like this. Someone has to! ;-)

Good luck with your life and career!

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by skc2000 at 1/1/12 8:31:18 PM

While i do agree that looping coasters do not have the airtime that hypers have but i have ridden looping coasters with OTSR,s that do have a little bit of airtime too.Even though this coaster is not around anymore i remember riding GASM at SFGADV before the trims were added & that coaster did have some nice airtime before the trims ruined the ride.

skc2000

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Great_Ump Great_Ump Profile at 1/2/12 5:39:21 PM

I'd "improve" Montu keeping all the trenches, of course.

I'd add a "Dominator" sized loop for the first vertical loop where you "hang" up there forever. The dive loop and barrell roll would remain, the batwing would stay, I'd add another barrel roll after the batwing element and another trench diving corkscrew to the end of the ride.

Montu, while she does not have traditional airtime hills, has several moments already of "free floating" in your restraint. I'd kick that up a notch.

Joe
Great_Ump

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 1/2/12 8:44:03 PM

> Now if I were to design the perfect coaster: It would have
> a 250 ft. or greater first drop, followed by 2 floating air
> time hills in an out and back type layout. Instead of a
> turn around with a helix or a turn, the coaster would then
> have a series of inversions. 4 would be the minimum, with a
> vertical loop, a zero g roll, a bat wing, and something
> original. The return trip would have a series of air time
> hills. Imagine Nitro with inversions were the helix is.
> The problem with my dream coaster is what park will request
> this? Parks want to build coasters that attract the GP, not
> enthusiasts like us. Who would be willing to think outside
> the box, spend the money, and give up the space? It would
> be the perfect coaster. Heck, put a launch somewhere in it
> so Jen will love it also. If only we were coaster
> designers.

I would LOVE that!! :~)

A coaster like Nitro with a launch and air time hills, followed by inversions and more hills? That would be my heaven. Now if we could add a dive element somewhere I'd never have to go on another coaster again! How about after the inversions before the last hills? I'm sure we'd need to build up momentum again after the inversions. That would be the PERFECT coaster!

Jen

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 1/2/12 10:39:37 PM

Corkscrews, and Cobra Rolls typically aren't known to give any airtime; Did Fahrenheit's Norwegian Loop (an inversion I haven't experienced yet) have any airtime?

Can someone who has ridden Fahrenheit explain which airtime elements gave negative-G's? (how many hills, and which inversions if any) Please reply.

* This Post Has Been Modified *

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 1/2/12 11:11:41 PM

> Corkscrews, and Cobra Rolls typically aren't known to give
> any airtime; Did Fahrenheit's Norwegian Loop (an inversion
> I haven't experienced yet) have any airtime?

> Can someone who has ridden Fahrenheit explain which airtime
> elements gave negative-G's? (how many hills, and which
> inversions if any) Please reply.

That's a good question. I don't particularly care too much for Fahrenheit because it has no negative G's. I don't remember any neg G's on the Norwegian loop so if they were there it wasn't much. Just a lot of twisting, turning and defensive riding. I still say the best part of that ride is the vertical lift and it's all downhill from there (no pun intended!) IMO. As you know I'm a hills and launch girl so a coaster with a lot of inversions really doesn't do it for me.

Jen

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Overbanked Overbanked Profile at 1/3/12 2:50:31 AM

^^^Thanks for the info Jen.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Tomes at 1/4/12 11:40:50 AM

I agree with Jen.

I think people talk about Fahrenheit because there is actually a small airtime hill after all the inversions, which is pretty intense because it's very short. I enjoyed Fahrenheit but I don't think it gets even close to Maverick. That ride has two really awesome airtime hills (wish it had more), some AMAZING "twisties" and a couple of inversions. I'd trade the two corkscrews for 0-g rolls, personally.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by gad198 gad198 Profile at 1/4/12 2:41:16 PM

> I agree with Jen.

> I think people talk about Fahrenheit because there is
> actually a small airtime hill after all the inversions,
> which is pretty intense because it's very short. I enjoyed
> Fahrenheit but I don't think it gets even close to
> Maverick. That ride has two really awesome airtime hills
> (wish it had more), some AMAZING "twisties" and a
> couple of inversions.

I agree with both of you. Fahrenheit did very little for me. It offers some unique elements, but even from the ride line we thought "wow, that little airtime hill looks like the best part of the ride" and even it didn't deliver anything noteworthy. It's a cute, but ultimately forgettable ride IMO. Maverick and Fahrenheit are miles apart as far as ride experiences go.

> I'd trade the two corkscrews for 0-g rolls, personally.

A lot of us love the zero-g roll element on sitters and inverts, and I think that this alone is the reason why Intamin could never get more inverted and looping coaster business. Volcano is the only full-circuit inverted coaster that Intamin did in the US. The big Intamin sit-down coasters that invert in the US (Maverick, Fahrenheit, Cheetah Hunt, Storm Runner and California Screamin' when the loop is functional) don't have zero-g rolls. The attempt to do one on Maverick didn't go so well (the only Intamin I'm aware of that really makes an attempt at a fast spinning zero-g roll is iSpeed in Italy). The rolls on Storm Runner and Volcano roll are done at a very leisurely pace in comparison to a zero-g roll on a B&M.

Long story short here is that B&M figured out how to do zero-g rolls successfully and Intamin didn't. Notice how just about every one of B&Ms inverted coasters and most of their sitters (Dominator and Wildfire being notable exceptions) feature a zero-g roll along the course.

Since Volcano opened in 1998, Intamin has made a grand total of 3 full-circuit inverts worldwide (only 1 in the US) and 5 sitters that contain at least one inversion in the US. Meanwhile, B&M has made 10 full-circuit inverts and 14 different sitters that have at least one inversion in the US alone. That's not a coincidence, and while that can certainly be attributed to a number of factors I truly believe that the zero-g roll on B&M coasters is a big reason as to why Intamin never got more business on coasters that feature inversions.

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Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Link Link Profile at 1/4/12 3:06:48 PM

The only experience of a Zero-G roll I've had was with Raptor at Cedar Point, which was barely noticeable. More specifically, it wasn't analogous to what I would have expected from a typical floater-air camelback hill.

Maybe Raptor is a poor example of the Zero-G roll element, but I don't exactly get the point of it.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 1/4/12 4:57:05 PM

Since this is a 'fantasy' thread, I guess I'll take a shot at this. And I admit, this may not fit what you are looking for, but I don't want to make a thread just for one post.

Combining the idea of airtime with inersions: Kingda Ka could've done more with that launch and the height especially since it already has the OTSRs. Had GL not been placed over GASM's space, I think there could've been more room to work with.

But with the unused parking spaces, I guess right after the drop from the tower, the train could enter some 540+ degree helix and exit toward the parking lot space into a magnetic launch into a cobra roll and then into a dominator sized loop and then hit a couple of overbanked curves and then comes to a stop just outside the station. Not exactly going to improve the overall ride of Kingda Ka, but it would make it better than just a 1 trick pony.

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Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Tomes at 1/4/12 5:13:59 PM

> A lot of us love the zero-g roll element on sitters and
> inverts, and I think that this alone is the reason why
> Intamin could never get more inverted and looping coaster
> business. Volcano is the only full-circuit inverted coaster
> that Intamin did in the US. The big Intamin sit-down
> coasters that invert in the US (Maverick, Fahrenheit,
> Cheetah Hunt, Storm Runner and California Screamin' when
> the loop is functional) don't have zero-g rolls. The
> attempt to do one on Maverick didn't go so well (the only
> Intamin I'm aware of that really makes an attempt at a fast
> spinning zero-g roll is iSpeed in Italy). The rolls on
> Storm Runner and Volcano roll are done at a very leisurely
> pace in comparison to a zero-g roll on a B&M.

> Long story short here is that B&M figured out how to do
> zero-g rolls successfully and Intamin didn't. Notice how
> just about every one of B&Ms inverted coasters and most of
> their sitters (Dominator and Wildfire being notable
> exceptions) feature a zero-g roll along the course.

> Since Volcano opened in 1998, Intamin has made a grand
> total of 3 full-circuit inverts worldwide (only 1 in the
> US) and 5 sitters that contain at least one inversion in
> the US. Meanwhile, B&M has made 10 full-circuit
> inverts and 14 different sitters that have at least
> one inversion in the US alone. That's not a coincidence,
> and while that can certainly be attributed to a number of
> factors I truly believe that the zero-g roll on B&M
> coasters is a big reason as to why Intamin never got more
> business on coasters that feature inversions.
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Gad I agree with you personally. But I also think that the B&M's 0-g roll is one of the only things they still have the edge on, over intamin. In almost every other category Intamin crushes B&M. Well, Intamin also doesn't have flying coasters yet. But they do have higher speed, more intense turns ("twisties"), more intense airtime hills, more innovative and almost 'random' track elements, intense launches, etc. whereas B&M usually has a relatively redundant series of elements and their airtime hills go almost as high as they can which means not too much airtime on the crest. I think they are actually breaking some ground with Leviathan and I can't effing wait to ride it! Hopefully I make it out there this summer. But since I like B&M (a lot) I'm glad to see that they still have some edge with their 0-g roll and their newly innovative rides like Leviathan and even the Sky Scrapper flyer in China are a new trend of edgy and innovative rides. Maybe they'll even be the first ones to combine a really nice hyper with a couple of surprise inversions :-)

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by gad198 gad198 Profile at 1/5/12 1:47:14 PM

> But I also think that the B&M's 0-g roll is one of the only
> things they still have the edge on, over intamin. In almost
> every other category Intamin crushes B&M.

I'm not in park management and I can't back this up with actual firsthand knowledge, but IMO there are four key reasons why B&M has done more business than Intamin in the US, particularly in the last ten years:

* B&Ms better safety and reliability record
* B&Ms higher potential throughput numbers
* B&Ms more comfortable restraints
* B&Ms always meet their opening dates

I agree with you that Intamin makes more dynamic rides (Bizarro and MF are my top 2 steel coasters). From a business perspective, however, I understand why B&M is getting more business here in the US and it has everything to do with the things listed above. It would have been really easy for Cedar Fair to choose Intamin for Leviathan over B&M, particularly given the fact they had already done two other gigas for the chain and at a park where they already have a B&M hyper. They still opted to go with B&M. Excluding Titan at SFOT and Phantoms Revenge, seven of the last eight megas/gigas built in North America have been B&Ms. Dollywood and SF Great America both chose B&M over Intamin for their wingriders.

It seems as though parks in the US are going to Intamin for coasters that launch, because they've only built five (Skyrush, I305, El Toro, Green Lantern, Fahrenheit) non-launching coasters here in the States in the last 10 years. I'm a little surprised that Intamin's pre-fab design never took off here or that there's not a park with a megalite in the US, but Intamin gets their foot in the door with parks because of their ability to launch coasters. Having said that...

> But they do have higher speed, more intense
> turns ("twisties"), more intense airtime hills,
> more innovative and almost 'random' track elements, intense
> launches, etc. whereas B&M usually has a relatively
> redundant series of elements and their airtime hills go
> almost as high as they can which means not too much airtime
> on the crest. I think they are actually breaking some
> ground with Leviathan and I can't effing wait to ride it!
> Hopefully I make it out there this summer. But since I like
> B&M (a lot) I'm glad to see that they still have some edge
> with their 0-g roll and their newly innovative rides like
> Leviathan and even the Sky Scrapper flyer in China are a
> new trend of edgy and innovative rides. Maybe they'll even
> be the first ones to combine a really nice hyper with a
> couple of surprise inversions :-)

I agree on all counts here. The new flyer in China looks absolutely delicious and going 90+ mph on Leviathan with only clamshells should be fantastic. It'll be interesting to see if Skyrush gets some more business to come Intamin's way, as I'd personally like to see a few more of their designs here. However...

I do wish that Intamin would find a way to improve their absolutely hideous OTSRs. The part of the restraint that runs over your thighs is hard as a rock and it's really hard to enjoy the negative-gs with those restraints. Hopefully the rumors of Skyrush having just an overhead lap bar are accurate, as that would be a step in the right direction.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Cyclone_Phil Cyclone_Phil Profile at 1/5/12 5:14:23 PM

Technically if Intamin's 'straps' were removed, wouldn't those be overhead lap bars?

I haven't rode I305 with the new restraints, but if they are as comfortable as they look, that's the type of restraint they should have for all of their coasters that requires an OTSR.

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Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by beastmaster beastmaster Profile at 1/5/12 7:30:55 PM

>> I haven't rode I305 with the new restraints, but if they
> are as comfortable as they look, that's the type of
> restraint they should have for all of their coasters that
> requires an OTSR.

The only problem I have with I-305's restraints (and remember, it's my #1 steel) is that actually pulling it over my head is extremely difficult to do without knocking my spectacles askew. Pain in the ass, is what it is.

Mike

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by BigShotRoz BigShotRoz Profile at 1/6/12 4:36:07 PM

A Kumba-like ride with some redesigned restraints. Now that would be nice, especially the zero-G roll.

Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? Photo Icon by Link Link Profile at 1/8/12 8:32:02 AM

Okay, here's my idea:

"(The) Gravity-Defying Dynamo"

Inspiration: A wacky ride from a bygone golden era of amusement parks. Like the product of a mad scientist--hence the wordiness of the title--it looks unsafely minimalist (open, floorless cars that protrude wider than the track). The ride's vertical loop is the centerpiece of the attraction, and flies riders over a gyro-like Tesla coil in its center (the titular "gravity-defying dynamo"). The track is white with white supports, and is styled after classic boardwalk architecture. The ride features "classic" coaster elements that flow gracefully together, and not the densely-compacted knots that seem to be the current trend. The signature title of the ride is spiraled alongside a pair of double corkscrews which stretches at eye-level via terrain toward guests as they approach the loading platform. (Think Kumba's pair of corkscrews but with the title of the coaster running alongside the track as if spiraling-off into a vortex.)

Manufacturer: Maurer Söhne
Train type: Custom floorless X-Car, stadium-tiered seating, 4 abreast, 4 trains with 4 cars per train

Specs:
212' vertical lift
97-degree drop
82 mph top speed
Linear launch section

Length: (Please advise)
Ride time: (Please advise)

Layout: Out-and-back/Terrain
Inversions: 7

Elements (in order):
Vertical lift with 228' 96-degree drop
Hill with 140' drop (an 88' difference--think Wild Thing or El Toro)
Hill with 104' drop
Hill with 82' drop
"Camelback twist" (identical to B&M Zero-G roll)
Cobra roll (turnaround)
Mid-course brake
Linear launch - 0 to 82 mph in 2.4 seconds
210' outside top hat with both 360-degree inline-twisting ascent and drop
128' vertical loop
Hill with 108' drop
Hill with 67' drop
101' "diving twist" (terrain) (camelback that drops into a heartline roll, inspired by Tomes)
Double corkscrew

Okay, this is my start. What would you add/tweak/change?

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Re: Airtime + Inversions: How? by Corkscrew_Foley Corkscrew_Foley Profile at 2/5/12 1:13:49 AM

I'd like to see B&M or Intamin rebuild Drachen Fire...That's what I would do...