Members, Sign In. Not a member? Sign Up

Ultimate Rollercoaster

Ultimate Rollercoaster > Discussion Forums > Roller Coasters, Parks & Attractions > Worried after Leviathon Anouncement...

Worried after Leviathon Anouncement...

chitlins73 chitlins73 Profile

Posted:
8/18/11 at
6:24:23 PM

Don't get me wrong.I am excited about the announcement of Leviathon and I intend to get up to Cananda next year to ride it.I am just worried that coaster building has hit a ceiling of some sort.When I seen that this coaster was a record breaker in some capacity,I was expecting something major as far as height or something unique that has never been done.So my main concern is the height of this coaster.Is a little over 300 feet as high as they are ever gonna be able to build a full curcuit coaster?Why could'nt they really break a record and make a 350 ft giga coaster?I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by LoneStar LoneStar Profile at 8/18/11 6:54:45 PM

Wait, let me get this straight - Canada's Wonderland, a park already with a B&M hyper, is now getting a B&M giga?

Well, that's awesome, with B&M's first 300 footer...but kind of a weird combo at the park, no? Will Behemoth last much longer? Will most guests use Behemoth as a "warm-up" coaster before daring Leviathon?

I'm sure it will be cool, hell, it should be awesome, but now they have 2 coaster that are very similar, just different in height and speed.

- Pat-O

PS - when are we going to see another hyper/giga looper?

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by frontrow frontrow Profile at 8/18/11 6:55:44 PM

I think the record they're breaking is the tallest, fastest coaster in Canada. I'm with you, when they said record breaking I was thinking of most inversions or a new one of a kind coaster. The 306ft. tall gigacoaster by B&M was unexpected, but a very pleasant surprise. This coaster is #1 on my priority list. This is B&M's first attempt at a giga coaster. I think a full circuit coaster 350 ft. tall is a possibility if a park is willing to pay the price tag. The only thing I don't like about this coaster's design is the lack of consecutive camel backs. Still this should be a top 10 if not a top 5 coaster.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by frontrow frontrow Profile at 8/18/11 7:10:11 PM

> Wait, let me get this straight - Canada's Wonderland, a
> park already with a B&M hyper, is now getting a B&M giga?

> Well, that's awesome, with B&M's first 300 footer...but
> kind of a weird combo at the park, no? Will Behemoth last
> much longer? Will most guests use Behemoth as a
> "warm-up" coaster before daring Leviathon?

> I'm sure it will be cool, hell, it should be awesome, but
> now they have 2 coaster that are very similar, just
> different in height and speed.

> - Pat-O

> PS - when are we going to see another hyper/giga looper?

From the videos, I'll be surprised if it's better than Behemoth.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by chitlins73 chitlins73 Profile at 8/18/11 7:26:20 PM

> Wait, let me get this straight - Canada's Wonderland, a
> park already with a B&M hyper, is now getting a B&M giga?

> Well, that's awesome, with B&M's first 300 footer...but
> kind of a weird combo at the park, no? Will Behemoth last
> much longer? Will most guests use Behemoth as a
> "warm-up" coaster before daring Leviathon?

> I'm sure it will be cool, hell, it should be awesome, but
> now they have 2 coaster that are very similar, just
> different in height and speed.

> - Pat-O

> PS - when are we going to see another hyper/giga looper?

That is another thing I thought to be strange about this decision to put a giga coaster at this park.They have a similar coaster already.I would have prefered a gravity group woodie of some sort because both of there woodies are kinda lame! Strange decision on Cedar Fair's part I think??

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Katie Katie Profile at 8/18/11 7:31:59 PM

To me, this looks like Canada's answer to I305. While it doesn't have all of 305 there is definitely the speed and airtime hills that could be construed as 305-ish.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Geauga_Dog Geauga_Dog Profile at 8/18/11 8:09:38 PM

> The only thing I don't like about this coaster's design is
> the lack of consecutive camel backs.

That's what sets this apart from Behemoth, which has all the camelbacks. Leviathan is more like a B&M Millennium Force.

I don't think we've hit the ceiling yet on full-circuit coasters. If rides can go 456 feet high than it's possible. It all comes down to price and how fast can you get a train up a traditional lift hill that high.

G-Dog

* This Post Has Been Modified *

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Eric_Gieszl Eric_Gieszl Profile at 8/18/11 8:15:57 PM

So did Intamin loose the project after the fiasco with Intimidator 305?

To the original poster I don't believe we will to see too many roller coasters in the 300+ foot range. There are many reasons like the high cost to build to that height.

Top Thrill Dragster, Kingda Ka, Superman The Escape are all examples of 400-foot tall coasters that essentially do nothing. The cost to reach the 400+ foot structure leaves nothing left in the budget to build an awesome ride. 200 - 225 feet seems to be the magic number for most budgets. 300-feet for a flagship ride, but go to 400-feet and you're $25-million in for a single trick. If they went for a lift hill on a 400-foot tall ride the cost would sky rocket even more.

The parks that can really afford to build awesome 400 plus foot tall rides like Disney and Universal won't build them. They'll spend $100 million plus on a ride, but it's not going to be a height breaking roller coaster.

Another issue is building and zoning restrictions. How many parks are in an area that permits structures that high? Obviously, Cedar Point, Six Flags Magic Mountain, Six Flags Great Adventure, Knott's Berry Farm, Kings Island, and Kings Dominion permit rides that high, but many other parks cannot get permission.

Many regional theme parks cannot even justify a $25 million ride. The attendance and potential return doesn't support that kind of investment.

Canada's Wonderland, however, is one of Cedar Fair's most valuable properties. This is a park that performs very well and has awesome potential. It stands up there with Cedar Point and easily beats their year-round park Knott's Berry Farm.

I think Leviathon is a genius addition. It's going to be a "Millennium Force" type attraction that a decade later will have crowds still lining up for it. Behemoth was an overdue signature ride and it's nice to see Cedar Fair follow up a few years later with another awesome capital investment.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by frontrow frontrow Profile at 8/18/11 8:37:52 PM

I agree with Eric and G Dog. As soon as I saw the video, I thought this looks like B&M's version of Millennium Force. The combo of MF and Magnum worked out well for Cedar Point, but they were built by different companies. I still have high hopes that Leviathan will deliver like MF. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by mugen828 mugen828 Profile at 8/18/11 8:49:19 PM

> Wait, let me get this straight - Canada's Wonderland, a
> park already with a B&M hyper, is now getting a B&M giga?

> Well, that's awesome, with B&M's first 300 footer...but
> kind of a weird combo at the park, no? Will Behemoth last
> much longer? Will most guests use Behemoth as a
> "warm-up" coaster before daring Leviathon?

> I'm sure it will be cool, hell, it should be awesome, but
> now they have 2 coaster that are very similar, just
> different in height and speed.

> - Pat-O

> PS - when are we going to see another hyper/giga looper?

> From the videos, I'll be surprised if it's better than
> Behemoth.

I haven't ridden behomoth but, from the looks of it Leviathan has no break run mid ride, and it's 92mph compared to 77mph. Although is might not have as many airtime hills it looks fun!

I can't wait to be able to ride both one day :D

- mugen

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by CoAsTeRDaN at 8/18/11 9:21:49 PM

> So did Intamin loose the project after the fiasco with
> Intimidator 305?

I doubt Intamin lost any contract or project. I am sure B&M took a few years to develop this. They never do anything quickly. B&M once said they would never do a 300 foot coaster, so I am sure they took their time and developement took awhile, this was in the works before I-305 was built.

Personally I think this is an odd choice for the park. As a lot of you have said, they already have Behemoth. This just doesn't make much sense. Havng a name like Behemoth and NOT being the biggest coaster in the park is kind of dumb. The design looks simple and I don't think there will be much forces in the ride, like most newer model B&M coasters. I am however glad to see the return of 4 abreast seating.
Danny
CoAsTeRDaN

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Great_Ump Great_Ump Profile at 8/18/11 10:30:35 PM

> Wait, let me get this straight - Canada's Wonderland, a
> park already with a B&M hyper, is now getting a B&M giga?

> Well, that's awesome, with B&M's first 300 footer...but
> kind of a weird combo at the park, no? Will Behemoth last
> much longer? Will most guests use Behemoth as a
> "warm-up" coaster before daring Leviathon?

> I'm sure it will be cool, hell, it should be awesome, but
> now they have 2 coaster that are very similar, just
> different in height and speed.

> - Pat-O

> PS - when are we going to see another hyper/giga looper?

> From the videos, I'll be surprised if it's better than
> Behemoth.

> I haven't ridden behomoth but, from the looks of it
> Leviathan has no break run mid ride, and it's 92mph
> compared to 77mph. Although is might not have as many
> airtime hills it looks fun!

> I can't wait to be able to ride both one day :D

> - mugen
>

Have no fear, they'll trim the hell out of the ride. They are Cedar Fair afterall.

Joe
Great_Ump

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by drachen drachen Profile at 8/18/11 11:24:26 PM

It seems as this has become the Leviathan thread, as the original took a turn towards the fun in crossing the border...

> So did Intamin loose the project after the fiasco with
> Intimidator 305?

> I doubt Intamin lost any contract or project. I am sure B&M
> took a few years to develop this. They never do anything
> quickly. B&M once said they would never do a 300 foot
> coaster, so I am sure they took their time and developement
> took awhile, this was in the works before I-305 was built.

I don't know. I think I-305's issues, and Intamin's issues in general, may have played a part in Canada's Wonderland and Cedar Fair's choosing of B&M. Don't forget the Maverick and Shoot the Rapids fiascos.

I'm positive that Intamin also bid this job for CW, and obivously they lost out. I don't know if B&M bid Millennium Force or I-305, as I'm sure there is some truth to B&M not having a 300 foot ride in their arsenal when those rides were built.

Perhaps, once B&M did have a 300 ft design, Cedar Fair was willing to give the much more reliable company the job, even if it may have cost them a few million dollars more.

I made some additional comments in the other thread. Perhaps they are more pertinent here...

> Behemoth gets great reviews, and seems to be regarded as
> one of the best of the B&M speed coasters. I've loved every
> single one I've ridden, and now Canada's Wonderland has
> TWO!

> Some random thoughts about this ride...

> 1) I can't believe this is the same park that added an SLC
> and a Zamperla flyer not that long ago. Now they have two
> monster B&M. That's like driving a Ford Pinto and a Chevy
> Nova and then buying two Cadillacs. It's awesome.

> 2) I think this makes a statement that Cedar Fair wants
> this park to be a real player in the industry.

> 3) This is a shot right across Six Flags's bow. People
> living between La Ronde and Canada's Wonderland should
> certainly pick the latter now, when deciding between the
> two parks.

> 4) This makes three Cedar Fair parks that have 300 foot
> coasters. Knott's is rumored to get one next year as well,
> making it four. The only "major" Cedar Fair park
> that doesn't have one will be Kings Island.

> 5) The logic that Kings Island won't get one because they
> have Diamondback, does not work obviously. Canada's
> Wonderland already has Behemoth. I love how Cedar Fair is
> saying that they're not afraid to build a bigger version of
> a very popular ride at the same park.

> 6) Due to the fact that this ride is "only" 306
> feet tall, I can't help but think that something larger is
> coming to Cedar Point, if not this year, than next year.

> 7) I'm a little puzzled by Leviathan's layout and train
> configuration. I think, aside from the height and the
> color, that the general public might feel it's the same
> ride as Behemoth. I really thought this was going to be a
> 300 foot dive machine.

> Overall, this is a very exciting announcement - the best
> one of the year so far.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by LoneStar LoneStar Profile at 8/18/11 11:47:41 PM

After thinking about it, I realized that CW is doing the same thing that CP did with Maggie and MF. They built a giga to out-do their record-breaking hyper, but to this day people still line up for Maggie...some say its better.

So CW should have success with both coasters in the park.

But there are two main differences. First, CP has over 10 years between the opening of MF and Maggie. At CW it's only 4. Behemoth has not yet earned the "Classic" status that Maggie has, so it doesn't feel like CW is "due" a new taller, faster, record breaking coaster.

It's sort of like Barry Bonds breaking McGwire's home run record - there wasn't enough time for the former record to be savored, so the new record became anticlimactic.

Second, Maggie and MF are different companies and completely different layouts. Granted, Leviathon has a unique layout, but even the GP will be able to spot the similarities with Behemoth.

On a different note, I wonder what B&M will do with the lift chain? Morgan had to use 2 chains on its giga due to the weight.

- Pat-O

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by mugen828 mugen828 Profile at 8/19/11 8:32:50 AM

It's definitely a strange decision but it's one that I couldn't imagine people being Unhappy with.

Sure the park could have used a nice wooden coaster or something even more unique than a bigger version of Behemoth, but still, I think the positive outweigh any negatives that go along with Cedar Fair's decision for 2012.

- mugen

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by drachen drachen Profile at 8/19/11 2:30:53 PM

> After thinking about it, I realized that CW is doing the
> same thing that CP did with Maggie and MF. They built a
> giga to out-do their record-breaking hyper, but to this day
> people still line up for Maggie...some say its better.

> So CW should have success with both coasters in the park.

I agree. Magnum is the hilly ride, Millennium is the record breaking speed coaster with overbanked turns and a few large hills.

The similarities between Leviathan and Millennium Force are striking. 300 foot hill into an overbanked turn, a low to the ground turn, an airtime hill, an overbanked turn around, and a hill or two back to the station.

I can't help but believe that Leviathan will be a heck of a ride. Sure there are similarities between it and Behemoth, but the GP doesn't care. We shouldn't either.

I can't believe that anyone would be disappointed in this addition. I was curious, and I went over to another coaster site that I hate, to read what people had to say. I couldn't believe the negative responses. I can't stand this new breed of enthusiast that's been spawned over there.

> On a different note, I wonder what B&M will do with the
> lift chain? Morgan had to use 2 chains on its giga due to
> the weight.

Two chains due to the weight of the chain, correct? I don't know what they are going to use on Leviathan. I would hope that whatever they use on this lift, that in moves quickly. That would be a long, slow climb, and it would be bad for capacity.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 8/19/11 3:26:35 PM

> I agree. Magnum is the hilly ride, Millennium is the record
> breaking speed coaster with overbanked turns and a few
> large hills.

> The similarities between Leviathan and Millennium Force are
> striking. 300 foot hill into an overbanked turn, a low to
> the ground turn, an airtime hill, an overbanked turn
> around, and a hill or two back to the station.

> I can't help but believe that Leviathan will be a heck of a
> ride. Sure there are similarities between it and Behemoth,
> but the GP doesn't care. We shouldn't either.

I agree. That's the first thing I thought of when some were upset that there were going to be two similar coasters - Magnum and MF. I love both of them and are a tie to me between which one I like better. Every time I ride Magnum I like it more and more. While they are similar, they are different enough that it does not feel at all like your riding the same coaster twice.

> On a different note, I wonder what B&M will do with the
> lift chain? Morgan had to use 2 chains on its giga due to
> the weight.

Can they not use a cable lift due to the height/weight?

Jen

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Tomes at 8/19/11 7:02:08 PM

First of all, I think it's funny that they named it Leviathan, which basically means "whale" in hebrew (but has been wrongly translated into some sea monster).

I also see this as being a weird move on Cedar Fair's part, since they do already have a hyper coaster - but think about it this way: If they built a 306' tall Intamin Gigacoaster, everybody would be like "oh, ok. Now they will have a B&M Hyper and an Intamin Giga. That makes sense." But instead, they're taking a different route, and trying out a whole new product that is a first of its kind. I think this is actually refreshing. So, yeah, they will have two non-inverting B&Ms, just like when amusement parks add wodden roller coasters - all they are is just wooden roller coasters! Like, Oh, Six Flags Magic Mountain already had Collossus and Psyclone, why would they add Terminator? Etc. It will be a different experience. Kind of like a MF compared to Magnum. I don't think the GP will complain about the similarities.

About Behemoth having that name and not being the tallest - Keep in mind that "Magnum XL200" implies "REALLY BIG" too, but guess what? No matter what you call a roller coaster, parks will keep getting bigger ones. If you live 100 years from now, don't you think Milennium Force and Kingda Ka will just be nice roller coasters from the past, kind of like how Magnum is? Think how much excitement was around Magnum when it was new... Yeah, we will keep seeing records breaking ever few years. Just nature of technology.

My one question is: If they don't list the drop height, Which is more important than the height of the ride, should I assume it drops 306'? I mean, MF goes up 310 and only drops 305... If it goes up 306 but only drops 287 then it's not a true giga coaster is it? What's Behemoth's drop? Why can't I find it anywhere??

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 8/19/11 7:13:53 PM

What's Behemoth's drop? Why
> can't I find it anywhere??

It says 220 ft here:

http://www.coaster-net.com/ride-gallery/295-behemoth/

Jen

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by frontrow frontrow Profile at 8/19/11 8:01:01 PM

The video shows Leviathan going all the way to ground with a trench cut out, so it will be at least a 300ft. drop. I rode Magnum in 1989. I was 13 years old. We went on a bus trip, therefor we didn't get to the park until 11:00. From the causeway I was amazed. Magnum had national recognition when it first opened, but it was bigger and more intimidating when I got to the park. I waited 3 1/2 hours for it, and in 1989 it was worth it. I was completely blown away. It was the best coaster on this planet and still is a fantastic ride today. The last few years the ride has been virtual a walk on. I ride it 4 or 5 times every time I go. In 2014 when it turns 25, I plan on ridding 25 times in a day. I have alot of great memories from that ride, but nothing beats that first ride. In 1989 it was amazing that they built a ride that tall, it was monumental.

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by Tomes at 8/20/11 2:10:56 PM

> What's Behemoth's drop? Why
> can't I find it anywhere??

> It says 220 ft here:

> Jen

Hey Jen,

I saw that too, but I had one issue with that website:
It says in the article that the drop is 85deg, and it's not even a typo because it goes on to say it's only "5 degrees short of their dive machines, and still 5 degrees steeper than milennium force". That right there is a false piece of information. ESPECIALLY that it contradicts itself because on the side bar it says 75degrees.. So that makes me wonder how valid their facts are.. where did they get 220' from? It doesn't list it on rcdb or on wikipedia.. Did Coasternet research it themselves? Did they talk with Mr. Bolliger? lol.. It's probably correct, but I'm just a little skeptic..

Tomes

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by GoYanks34 GoYanks34 Profile at 8/20/11 2:32:22 PM

> Hey Jen,

> I saw that too, but I had one issue with that website:
> It says in the article that the drop is 85deg, and it's not
> even a typo because it goes on to say it's only "5
> degrees short of their dive machines, and still 5 degrees
> steeper than milennium force". That right there is a
> false piece of information. ESPECIALLY that it contradicts
> itself because on the side bar it says 75degrees.. So that
> makes me wonder how valid their facts are.. where did they
> get 220' from? It doesn't list it on rcdb or on wikipedia..
> Did Coasternet research it themselves? Did they talk with
> Mr. Bolliger? lol.. It's probably correct, but I'm just a
> little skeptic..

> Tomes

I hear you but it was the only site I could find that info. Other sites say the drop is comparable to Nitro, which is 215 feet so that's why I think it's probably close. It's weird that no other site has that info though.

Jen

Re: Worried after Leviathon Anouncement... by frontrow frontrow Profile at 8/20/11 3:19:31 PM

Coastergrotto.com has it at 230 ft. tall with a 85° angle. This is probably accurate. That first drop is so steep and it goes all the way to ground, in fact the first 5 drops go all the way to ground. I would guess that the drop is at least 225 ft. if not 227 ft. It looks and feels like a 85° drop. I'll try and do more research on this because you guys got me curios.

Ok after checking out 3 more web sites the 85° angle may be incorrect. All 3 sites gave 230 ft. tall at a 75° angle.

Diamondback and Intimadator are listed at 230 ft. tall with a 74° angle. So Behemoth probably has a 75° angle of decent. Behemoth's drop is larger because it goes all the way to the ground, where Diamondback and Intimadator do not.

* This Post Has Been Modified *