Arrow Loopers...Almost "Extinct"???

With the demolition of SFGAdv's GASM underway and the many other Arrow looping coasters being reduced to scrap metal over the last ten or so years, including (GASM's twin) Shockwave, Drachen Fire, Orient Express, etc., does that mean the other existing Arrow loopers' days are numbered, such as SFMM's Viper, Kings Dominion's Anaconda, Kings Island's Vortex, SFGAM's Demon and BGW's Loch Ness Monster??? Although I am not a fan of Arrow coasters, several Arrow loopers, such as Loch Ness Monster, have become classics and I would hate to see them go anytime soon.

My guess is that with the hardship many parks are enduring in our current economy, expansion is now coming at a price. Many of the latest doomed Arrow coasters have fallen from "addition by subtraction".

I don't know how S&S is providing parts for Arrow coasters, but it seems that the cost of procuring them is becoming not worth the ridership that a lot of the rides are getting.

As for the list, here's my speculation.
Viper-safe as long as MM wants to continue to chase the coaster record with CP.

Anaconda - safe for now, but if KD wants does want to get rid of a coaster for expansion, Conda is probably next on the list with Shockwave. Depends on which the park is willing to part with 1st.

Vortex - there have be whisperings, but I think Flight Deck and SOB will go before Vortex, so it will be safe for quite a number of years.

Loch Ness - I think Busch realizes the value in keeping Loch Ness. Getting rid of BBW made the ride even more valuable to the park's image. Plus, I don't think Loch Ness is as intense or dynamic on the ride's structure as some of larger Arrow coasters

Demon - Mechanically, I would guess it is the same as Loch Ness. Not as mechanically taxing.

Paul

Anaconda could've made better use of the lake, but I agree that it would probably be safe.
Shockwave has had a few down times the past 2 times I was there this May. I wouldn't be surprised they get rid of Shockwave. Something like Hershey's Farenheit or Storm Runner would be nice in place of it. The thing is, there doesn't seem to be much room in that area to have a larger coaster layout unless they were to knock down a nearby attraction to make room.

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If KD was to get rid of Anaconda then my suggestion is to not build anything in its place. Let I-305 be the marquee ride near what's left of Lake Charles.

KI's Vortex still seems to run rather well and continues to be quite a popular ride. I don't see them taking it out any time soon.

Loch Ness is BGW's most iconic ride even with all the Beemers the park has. That's another one I don't see them taking out soon.

Silverwood is still running the very first Arrow Corkscrew model that came from Knott's so depending on the park these vintage Arrows can still have a lot of life left in them. It all depends on if the park is willing to keep them going.

G-Dog

> Anaconda could've made better use of the lake, but I agree
> that it would probably be safe.
> Shockwave has had a few down times the past 2 times I was
> there this May. I wouldn't be surprised they get rid of
> Shockwave. Something like Hershey's Farenheit or Storm
> Runner would be nice in place of it. The thing is, there
> doesn't seem to be much room in that area to have a larger
> coaster layout unless they were to knock down a nearby
> attraction to make room.

Like an antique ride across the path? Add that to the site and there is more than enough room for a sizable attraction right in the middle of the park, ala Griffon.

Paul

> Silverwood is still running the very first Arrow Corkscrew
> model that came from Knott's so depending on the park these
> vintage Arrows can still have a lot of life left in them.
> It all depends on if the park is willing to keep them
> going.

> G-Dog

I thought about adding CP's Corkscrew to the list, but I don't think any of the Arrow 1st gen loopers are in the same kind of jeopardy as the large multi-loopers. (less height, less speed, less maintenance.) The "80 ft corkscrews" of the world will most likely be the last to go.

Paul

I can see why the high maintenance ones like the suspendeds may go away. I would not be to upset to lose a looper or two that are more pain than gain (GASM @ SFGAV). I hope that the hybrids (Excalibur, Gemini), the 4th dimensions (X2), and the best custom loopers (Tennessee Tornado,
Loch Ness Monster, Dragon Mountain, Anaconda) stay around for a long time. Even most mine trains make for a nice change once in a while.

> My guess is that with the hardship many parks are enduring
> in our current economy, expansion is now coming at a price.
> Many of the latest doomed Arrow coasters have fallen from
> "addition by subtraction".

> I don't know how S&S is providing parts for Arrow coasters,
> but it seems that the cost of procuring them is becoming
> not worth the ridership that a lot of the rides are
> getting.

I'd love to hear in your expert opinion how much parts cost for an old Arrow coaster from S&S.

Joe
Great_Ump

What I don't get, why wouldn't park's just contact Morgan or even Vekoma(yes, I know Vekoma, BUT for the sake or conversation). I was just thinking right before GASM's demise, they could have done a complete retracking like with Phantom's Revenge. To be honest, I would have rather seen GASM in the skyline then some B&M stand up.

At Darien Lake, I think Viper has a while. An Arrow Looper might be unpopular at a park like SFGAdv, but it's probably the second or third most popular coaster Darien Lake has! (It sometimes doesn't have a line, but it's often the only coaster that runs two trains!)

I would personlly rather see them take out both Predator and Mind Eraser at the same time than take out Viper.

> I can see why the high maintenance ones like the suspendeds
> may go away. I would not be to upset to lose a looper or
> two that are more pain than gain (GASM @ SFGAV). I hope
> that the hybrids (Excalibur, Gemini), the 4th dimensions
> (X2), and the best custom loopers (Tennessee Tornado,
> Loch Ness Monster, Dragon Mountain, Anaconda) stay around
> for a long time. Even most mine trains make for a nice
> change once in a while.

Worse comes worse: can't Vekoma build replacement trains? And I totally loved the Tennessee Tornado, I don't think that ride would be taken down unless a new coaster were to replace it.

> What I don't get, why wouldn't park's just contact Morgan
> or even Vekoma(yes, I know Vekoma, BUT for the sake or
> conversation). I was just thinking right before GASM's
> demise, they could have done a complete retracking like
> with Phantom's Revenge. To be honest, I would have rather
> seen GASM in the skyline then some B&M stand up.

The problem I have with some custom loopers (including GASM) is the over the shoulder restraints. If Vekoma would use a similar kind to what they put on Ninja (SFOG), retracking is not the only thing that needs to be done. Also, it would not be just any B&M stand up, it would be the only one of my four that I really really liked. To me there is a BIG difference between Chang and
Mantis, Georgia Scorcher, or Vortex.

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I personally believe that many of the Arrow custom (or "mega") loopers could have been made into totally different (and much better) rides if they had gotten new trains with a completely different restraint system (such as a combination lap bar/seatbelt) and over-the-shoulder restraints eliminated. I'm one of many who gets their ears bashed by the over-the-shoulder restraints on Arrow coasters, which of coarse is why I'm not a fan of Arrow coasters. A ride doesn't have to be painful to be safe.

> I personally believe that many of the Arrow custom (or
> "mega") loopers could have been made into totally
> different (and much better) rides if they had gotten new
> trains with a completely different restraint system (such
> as a combination lap bar/seatbelt) and over-the-shoulder
> restraints eliminated. I'm one of many who gets their ears
> bashed by the over-the-shoulder restraints on Arrow
> coasters, which of coarse is why I'm not a fan of Arrow
> coasters. A ride doesn't have to be painful to be safe.

That's why the only Arrow looper that I can say I really like is LNM - it lacks the usual corkscrew inversions that come after the vertical loops and there's really no side to side movement that can trigger head banging. It isn't the vertical loops but the other elements that cause the pain with the current restraints. If they could retrofit the restraints to be like the ones on I-305 they'd be so much better!

> I can see why the high maintenance ones like the suspendeds
> may go away. I would not be to upset to lose a looper or
> two that are more pain than gain (GASM @ SFGAV). I hope
> that the hybrids (Excalibur, Gemini), the 4th dimensions
> (X2), and the best custom loopers (Tennessee Tornado,
> Loch Ness Monster, Dragon Mountain, Anaconda) stay around
> for a long time. Even most mine trains make for a nice
> change once in a while.

Excalibur has had a little work done on the track and trains and it is running the best it has in many years, don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon. It was so good last time I rode it 16 times!

Brett

> My guess is that with the hardship many parks are enduring
> in our current economy, expansion is now coming at a price.
> Many of the latest doomed Arrow coasters have fallen from
> "addition by subtraction".

> I don't know how S&S is providing parts for Arrow coasters,
> but it seems that the cost of procuring them is becoming
> not worth the ridership that a lot of the rides are
> getting.

> I'd love to hear in your expert opinion how much parts cost
> for an old Arrow coaster from S&S.

> Joe
> Great_Ump

Couldn't tell you. I used to know a couple of maintenance workers at Busch...12 years ago!! Doubt they are still there now. But, speculation due to the way all 3 major chains are discarding them lately, it probably is not cheap.

Paul

> What I don't get, why wouldn't park's just contact Morgan
> or even Vekoma(yes, I know Vekoma, BUT for the sake or
> conversation). I was just thinking right before GASM's
> demise, they could have done a complete retracking like
> with Phantom's Revenge. To be honest, I would have rather
> seen GASM in the skyline then some B&M stand up.

Simple answer, $$$. Phantom's Revenge wasn't a cheap project and if it was a special case. The site was unique (I doubt a 4 across B&M train could fit through that hole in Thunderbolt), the park was in a different circumstance with only having 1 major steel coaster (Exterminator doesn't count). Could Gradv, for example, keep the lift for Scream Machine and have Morgan turn it into a hyper? Sure, but what would be the point? They have Nitro, Chang is currently without a home and available, and the site is just a flat plot of land. For a company just coming out of bankruptcy, it doesn't take an economics degree to see which is the cheaper move.

By the way, what was the last custom coaster Morgan has built? Are they even still in the business?

Paul

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Paul,

I was curious about Morgan as well, and didn't know if they had built anything after SD2K. They did build the "Superman" coaster in Mexico that opened in 2004. I sure hope that they keep going, they have some great hypers: Steel Eel, PR, SF, and my favorite giga, SD2K.

-Tim

The site was unique
> (I doubt a 4 across B&M train could fit through that hole
> in Thunderbolt), the park was in a different circumstance
> with only having 1 major steel coaster (Exterminator
> doesn't count).

HEY!!! I resemble that remark!

Curly Mike

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> The site was unique
> (I doubt a 4 across B&M train could fit through that hole
> in Thunderbolt), the park was in a different circumstance
> with only having 1 major steel coaster (Exterminator
> doesn't count).

> HEY!!! I resemble that remark!

> Curly Mike
> * This Post Has Been Modified *

I knew I had to add that before some wisenheimer brought up Exterminator :)

Paul

> At Darien Lake, I think Viper has a while. An Arrow Looper
> might be unpopular at a park like SFGAdv, but it's probably
> the second or third most popular coaster Darien Lake has!
> (It sometimes doesn't have a line, but it's often the only
> coaster that runs two trains!)

> I would personlly rather see them take out both Predator
> and Mind Eraser at the same time than take out Viper.

The Viper is a pretty underrated coaster...in my opinion anyway. probably just cause it's at Darien Lake. It's still smooth, well taken care of, and cherished by all Darien Lake fans. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

> What I don't get, why wouldn't park's just contact Morgan
> or even Vekoma(yes, I know Vekoma, BUT for the sake or
> conversation). I was just thinking right before GASM's
> demise, they could have done a complete retracking like
> with Phantom's Revenge. To be honest, I would have rather
> seen GASM in the skyline then some B&M stand up.

> Simple answer, $$$. Phantom's Revenge wasn't a cheap
> project and if it was a special case. The site was unique
> (I doubt a 4 across B&M train could fit through that hole
> in Thunderbolt), the park was in a different circumstance
> with only having 1 major steel coaster (Exterminator
> doesn't count). Could Gradv, for example, keep the lift for
> Scream Machine and have Morgan turn it into a hyper? Sure,
> but what would be the point? They have Nitro, Chang is
> currently without a home and available, and the site is
> just a flat plot of land. For a company just coming out of
> bankruptcy, it doesn't take an economics degree to see
> which is the cheaper move.

> By the way, what was the last custom coaster Morgan has
> built? Are they even still in the business?

> Paul
> * This Post Has Been Modified *

I gathered money...;) As for Morgan, they don't have to turn GASM into a hyper, just retrack, or even rebuild. I understand economics and all that jazz, but suppose it would have been nothing more than a pipedream.

> By the way, what was the last custom coaster Morgan has
> built? Are they even still in the business?

> Paul
> * This Post Has Been Modified *

> I gathered money...;) As for Morgan, they don't have to
> turn GASM into a hyper, just retrack, or even rebuild. I
> understand economics and all that jazz, but suppose it
> would have been nothing more than a pipedream.

A Morgan looper?!?! Now that is a REAL pipedream, lol.